The 2nd amendment governs the land. Except at Pizza Hut.

Good for that kid.
They shouldn’t fire him.
They should make him a manager.

Pat- this is not a second amendment issue. Congress and/or the state did not make a law…a company made a policy that said the employees could not carry a firearm while working.

When you are at work, you are acting as an agent of the company that employs you. They can and do make rules that limit your behavior (you can’t swear in front of customers, you have to wear a uniform or follow a dress code, you can’t drink on your lunch break), and in most cases you agree to it. Most large (and many small) companies have a written employee handbook. And in a large number of cases, you actually sign an agreement at the end of the handbook that you will abide by the rules in the handbook. If there is a rule in the handbook that states that won’t pack heat while on the job, and if you get fired for packing heat, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Now – why would a company like Pizza Hut have rules in place like “Don’t Carry a Gun”? Insurance liability. They know that if someone is shot by one of their delivery drivers, they could be sued. What do they want you to do when you get robbed? Hand over the money, keep your head down, and stay safe.

Anthony, sorry, but I’m not buying it. One liberal to another, we can take jobs where we don’t make crap because that’s the only jobs there are these days, but we shouldn’t have to also surrender our constitutional rights just to work for the man. I’m just sayin’

A different kid could have known kung-fu (or whatever) and could have karatasized the thiving no-mind moron in the neck.

What’s the diff?

There is no diff.

Just because we want a job doesn’t mean we have to submit ourselves to corporate powerlessness and personal humiliation.

Amen to both your posts, Bill. It reminds me of something we were told in security training in the Guard: It is much better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Bill – Unless you are self employed (you are, I’m not) you give up Constitutional rights at work. It’s part of being employed. I’m not saying it is right, I’m just saying it is true.

You lose free speech at the front door of your place of employment (tell your boss that he’s a damned idiot – see how that goes). You loose fourth amendment rights (video cameras watching employees for theft, right to search employee lockers, etc.) And again PEOPLE AGREE TO IT! If you look at the employee agreements that pretty much anyone signs, they agree to this crap. And I’m sorry – if you agree to suspension of your rights, you have only yourself to blame.

If this kid was given an employee handbook, and if it said no guns, and if he signed anything agreeing to abide by the employee handbook, then he broke his agreement with the company, and they have the right to fire him. Now – if this wasn’t in an employee handbook, and/or he was not informed that he could be fired for having a firearm, then he has reason to be upset.

But this is NOT a Constitutional Rights question, as the Constitution does NOT apply to this. Neither Congress nor the state of Iowa made any laws that interfered with the right to bear arms. This is a company saying “This is how we expect our employees to behave, and if they do not behave in the fashion that we expect, they will no longer be employed by us.” They didn’t say couldn’t own guns; they didn’t say that he couldn’t carry a gun – they simply said that while he was on the clock, he couldn’t carry a gun. And most likely he agreed to this rule.

I will never give up my constitutional rights, Anthony, and you shouldn’t either. And no contract with your employer can constitutionally make you do so. We are Americans first, employees second. Or at least that’s my take on it. (Ok, so maybe that’s why I only work for myself, huh?)

Sorry Bill, but Anthony is absolutely right. You simply don’t have a Constitutional right to carry a gun while working for Pizza Hut if they have company policy to prohibit it. An employer CAN forbid you from carrying a gun without violating the Constitution. Of course, you don’t have to work for Pizza Hut if you don’t like their policies.

Bill,

There is a bulletin board at my place of work. If an employee wants to put something up on the board, it must be approved by the company/HR.

I can’t put up a poster of say, an aborted fetus, without permission and expect not to face some consequences.

I have freedom of speech, but it doesn’t protect me from the consequences of exercising that speech. The company would be well within it’s right to fire me, they are not obligated or constitutionally required to keep me if I violate company policy.

2:51 anon and Patti. 2:54.

Not in my shop.

I don’t believe in usurping my employees fundamental rights. Ever.

But I know what you’re saying.

I’m just wondering why you put up with it.

Your boss needs you worse than you need him.

Especially if you are otherwise an exemplary worker.

I’m just sayin’.

“Organize, organize, organize.”

(p.s. I’ve never been able to communicate this idea very well in South Dakota, but I’ll keep trying. Why is it that the best people on the planet are also the ones who seem somehow to believe they’re not?)

One question for ya Bill, maybe its been answered it before…How do you feel about the DC ban?

By the way, I agree with ya here.

3:41 Nom,

DC ban on guns? I don’t agree with it. I am one of those crazed Democrats who thinks he understands exactly why the Second Amendment is there. And I don’t think it has anything to do with pheasant hunting.

Sometimes I disagree with you, but I’ll agree with that at times, you’re crazed. (It’s only jest)

Thanks for answering. My thoughts exactly. I’m patiently waiting to hear what the S.C. has to say.

^5 Nom. Nice talkin wit’cha.

Even Bill Fleming concedes the point here. It is indisputably true that Pizza Hut can prohibit its employees from having a gun at work, just as Anthony explained. Whether an employee SHOULD put up with that restriction, or should unionize or threaten to quit, is up to the worker. But it is not a constitutional issue.

An employer could not prohibit you from owning or carrying a gun ON YOUR TIME OFF, but they can while you are at work.

You can argue the plusses and minuses of having this policy in a work place (and Anthony is right – it is all about insurance), but it is not a constitutional issue at all.

Bill,

I am basically a cog in the corporate machine. I have no illusions whatsoever that my employer needs me more than I need them. I can basically walk off my job Monday and it will have little impact (other than emotional) on my department or company. The few folks that have left our department, do not get replaced, the tasks are simply reassigned to someone else.

As far as unionizing? Never happen. We don’t work in a coal mine and the work isn’t exactly critical to the existence of civilization.

Patti. I’m sorry, That is so often the case, Even so,may I suggest that your best posture is to assume that your employerer is not an automation and instead, has a conscience?

“Automaton,” Not “Automation.”
)k… Maybe just think Corporate Robot”, Patti.

Hey, I’m positive you’re not one,
but I’m guessing your boss doesn’t think s/he is one either.

Small companies know their employees make the business, but it doesn’t work that way with corporations. It’s more along the lines of feel like a number.

TGrand, the kid was holding a gun to his head. What did you want him to do with him to disarm him, the chicken dance? I think it’s a tribute to the pizza worker that the stupid thug is still alive.

I am still convinced that BF, TGR and NDP are the same person (BF). Or at least 2 out of 3. I think BF is just trying to find a way to talk to himself.

Bill

Don’t get me wrong, I like what I do and my boss and co-workers are great. However there are hundreds of us where I work and we have been bought and sold as a company several times. Its not anyone’s ‘fault’ it is the nature of the beast.

Sab:

Thanks for the compliment. I think highly of BF.

But let’s quit tiptoeing through the tulips.

I’m not BF or TGR. I’m more conservative. There’s common ground, ya know.

Besides that, I’m much shorter than BF.

Renli’s right, Fleming is wrong.

over. There is no more sayin’

Mr. Renli, why don’t you ask the family of Donnivan Schaefer if hand over the money, keep your head down and stay safe is the right thing to do.

People like Mark Barton will totally agree with firearms in the work place. If there would have been a librul gun law in Atlanta, he wouldn’t have had to go home and kill his family first, he could have just unloaded at work and then gone home, unless someone else there would have taken him out.

I think I’m beginning to understand why Karl Rove said all we have to do is get people to focus on Guns, Gods and Gays. There’s no time to look at other issues.

Let’s not forget that gun rights advocate Mike McVeigh made a little statement of his own today. We did execute him for his deeds though.

Why is the gun debate so easy? Simple, there is no gray area. No one is psychotic. Everyone is a great shot. Figuring out the good guys and the bad guys is a perfect process. Absolutely nothing could go wrong. If we are not all packing the entire country is in jeopardy of being subjected to tyranny or worse.

I wish everything was this simple.

Big B 9:56 – I didn’t say it was right…but it is pretty much every national corporation’s policy on what to do in case of robbery. They are scared of being sued: Sued by the people who rob them or sued by any innocent bystanders who happen to get caught in the crossfire. Right or wrong, people will sue, and they will go after the target who has the most money, and that’s the business. It’s all about money and insurance. This is why most private security guards don’t carry a firearm.

Once again: I would much rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Period. I don’t care what my employer says. I’ve been unemployed before.

Tgrindadams…

The article said he “grabbed the gun” it didn’t say he took the gun away from the other guy. I imagine it was probably a pretty chaotic struggle and the driver was fearing every split second that the gun would go off and he’d be killed.

According to De Moines Register:

Police said that when officers arrived, Spiers had both handguns, and the wounded robber had fled.

“The incident wasn’t something quick and simple… I did not just take the gun out of the guy’s hand and shoot him with it. It was a long ordeal, or it felt like it,” Spiers said. “My life was, without a doubt, in danger. I wouldn’t have shot anybody if I didn’t think my life was in danger.

“In my circumstance, there was no way out.”

Once the driver shot, I am guessing that the robber dropped his gun. Getting shot has an adverse affect on one’s grip, apparently.

Pizza Hut has a policy against guns, I’d bet a lot it has more to do with fear over employee on employee violence than anything. Most corporations don’t make decisions on handbook content over fear of an external lawsuit, but rather an internal one.

Fleming, you SHOULD be right … but in this case you’re not. People simply can’t be trusted to make their own decisions and act in a manner becoming to society.

So Hoooray for the good guys! He took out some idiot thinking to score $50 at the possible cost of someone’s life and put him injured in jail. Ultimately it will probably end up bettering the driver’s as well as the robber’s life.

….. then again… mebbe not.

Fletch

Fletch. Pretty funny.
People can’t be trusted.
So much for democracy then, huh?
LOL.

good debate between bf and renli. i like it.

renli’s probably right. but how can you fire the guy after all the he did? he should be treated like a hero. they can still keep their no-gun policy, and enforce it if they have to, but give the guy a medal and a raise.

I know that Anthony et. al. are right that corporations can make such rules. But, Bill has a great point: Corporations in the performance of one’s job could place one in danger. Is it wise that they allow their employee no choice in how best to protect himself?

My college attending daughter has mace and I’ve told her to err on the side of using it vs. not. We’ll deal w/ an overreaction if it happens.

The surprise in the Constitution is not so much how many rights “We the People” have been able to secure, but rather how quickly we seem ready to surrender them for a quick buck, or because it’s somehow too much hassle to fight those who would presume to usurp them.

amen to that one, bf. how does the saying go? those who are willing to trade their rights for temporary security deserve neither? did i get that right?

Yes, lr. You got that right. ^5/.

Corporations could certain allow employees to carry guns on their property. How much would it cost them as far as liability insurance if they do so?

Patti, I would say it comes with the job description, and not to worry about the insurance. That’s management’s job, not yours.

Even so. What’s one dead employee against a slightly insurance premium?

And beyond that what’s wrong with the Pizza Hut message: “We’ll bring you your pizza with joy, hot and fresh in a heartbeat, but mess with our kids and they’ll kick your ass?”

I’m just sayin’…

…a slightly higher INSURANCE premium… sorry.

You’re being a little naive, Bill, and bordering on condescending. Many people need to take the job that’s available to them, even if that job is at Pizza Hut and Pizza Hut employees cannot pack heat. They can’t be picky. They need money too badly to be picky. Most people are in that boat. Very few people are in the boat that allows them to start working for themselves, like you. Don’t presume every has the same gifts and benefits you’ve had.

One thing we all can do is to invoke our constitutional right of association, I think we have that right. We do not have to associate with Pizza Hut, in other words stop ordering from them and patronizing their business. But first, let them know that you will stop buying if they don’t rescind the firing.

Maybe the states should pass legislation saying that a business which allows their employee who has a concealed gun permit, to carry a gun, that business cannot be sued because of any action relating to that firearm.

Just some suggestions.

Anon 9:50, true enough. It wasn’t my intention to condescend.

tgrindadams-
You want to and try to defend the criminal. WOW> This idiot criminal brought the gun and it was a gun fight. Im sure the criminal thought this is easy. But the Pizza Guy was on a even playing field. Both having the element of surprise. If somebody points a gun at me period, he should know death could happen. Either from a police officer, a fellow citizen or me. I have a permit but never carry. Your perspective scares the hell out of me.Be thank-full we have a military that defends those rights…..With Guns.

My bet is TGrand could kick you clean in the throat
faster than you could pull your pistol.

But that’s just a distant (and probably unwarranted) impression.

Point being, it’s not always about guns.