Because I lost track of this thread, I have failed to reply in a timely manner and I’m sure that you will not see this.

Except in an act of legitimate law enforcement, military, or self-defense is justified in killing another human being. Furthermore, nobody has the right to judge another’s quality of life. If your daughter is not suited to care for the most hurting among us, she needs to find another line of work.

So we can at least agree that there are SOME late-term abortions that should be legal? NEED to be legal? That at least in THOSE cases it’s no one else’s business but the family and their doctor? Once we agree on that simple fact, now we can begin to consider where to draw the line… and that’s where it gets difficult. But at least we agree that it’s NOT simply black and white anymore.

Can we agree that it’s usually the same people that hate the idea of universal health-care because they fear having The Government come between them and their doctor – that propose, in the case of abortion, that The Same Government come between the patient and their doctor?

And please allow me to say: my daughter really DID work in the NICU of a larger city – at a hospital where abortion was NOT allowed – and where she really DID have to care for babies born with horrible birth defects – and it really DID affect her – and through her, me. I did NOT make that up just to make my point. She has since revised her stance on, and is no longer, strictly anti-abortion – by the way – and obviously, neither am I. (She no longer works there…)

Also, I still stand by what I said about working in the NICU – your friend notwithstanding: The Bill O’Reillys and the Laura Ingrahams and everyone else that sits in the comfort of their home and callously passes judgments on the health and well-being of others going through an agonizing choice should have to deal with the real-life results of the decisions. If even only for a while. One year was enough for us.

Why can’t you libs just quit with the double standards? Right. When hell freezes over.

I do think the language is appropriate for leftwing terrorism as well. The DHS issued a report on leftwing terrorism that came out before the one on rightwing terrorism. But you didn’t here any liberals defending the wackjobs on the extreme left by attacking the report.

“So where was Epp and the Obama apologists when it was reported that Obama launched his political career in the home of domestic terrorists”

We were busying disproving it with the fact that he launched his first campaign from a hotel. Yes Bill Ayers was a terrorist, 40 years ago. And I’m not aware that he ever killed anybody.

“the first poster used the Obama Administration’s report to politicize the act and extropolate it to millions of Americans based upon the Obama report that calls those who care about children, veterans groups, national security, etcc.. “right wing extremists”

I was demonstrating that the report should not have been attacked because some of its warning were starting to come true. The report (which was begun by the Bush WH not Obama) never mentions the word ‘conservative’ once. So stop defending these people! If you don’t plan on killing anybody, the report obviously isn’t talking about you.

“As far as one can tell from the report, “right wing” militias and similar groups may be dying out rather than growing.”

-James Adkisson shot up a church in TN and said this, “Know this if nothing else: This was a hate crime. I hate the damn left-wing liberals.”

-the dirty bomber in Maine- “James was very upset with Barack Obama being elected President,” reported the Washington Regional Threat and Analysis Center. “James had been in contact with white supremacist groups and mixed chemicals in the kitchen sink at their residence and had mentioned dirty bombs. Also found was literature on how to build dirty bombs and information about cesium-137, strontium-90 and cobalt-60, radioactive materials,” said theBangor Daily. “The FBI report also stated there was evidence linking James Cummings to white supremacist groups.”

-two distinct white supramacists plots to assassinate Obama before his inaguration

-the shooting of 3 police officers in Pittsburgh because of “the Obama gun ban that’s on the way”

Rightwing terrorism is absolutely on the rise; quit deluding yourself. These people are not conservatives or Republicans, they hate America. These are the people the report was warning about.

“It’s not terrorism, domestic or otherwise. It’s not political.”

This is political as they get my friend. Dr. Tiller was not killed while being mugged or anything like that. He was killed for the sole reason that he performs abortions. How is that not political?

Furthermore, yes ultra right wing groups do network. So do ultra left wing groups. So do pedophiles. So do mother’s who have kids with autism. The Right to Assembly is a constitutional right. In the first three groups, their views are protected (as heinous as their ideas and ideals might be). What is illegal is when they ACT on them. And, when they act on them or conspire to ACT, it becomes a legitimate law enforcement (not homeland security) matter. Whether one is liberal or conservative, civil liberty loving Americans need to understand this and appreciate this distinction.

Finally, your self-righteous indignation against Rush, et. al. is hypocritical. As one who listens and watches as much conservative radio/TV as liberal, there is no saints with regard to use of hyperbole in these media. I’ve heard an awful lot of “hyperbole” that suggested that certain conservatives needed to be “terminated.” With regard to Laura, she had a very heartfelt discussion about the heinousness of the death of Tiller where she also talked about how the fact it was done in a church showed the magnitude of how ill-formed this guys conscience was.

Todd Epp: Poor decision to impugn someone because they might have met this person. I’m sure that Nick knew the Highmore Sheriff who killed his wife. I don’t think such a meeting reflects on Nick, even if he was friendly with him. Unless Nick is God, he can’t peer into anyone’s soul. And neither can Steve and Leslee. Totally inappropriate to make such an adhominem attack, Todd.

Springer: You are exactly right. No matter ones external motive (political, hate, economic, personal) to kill, the underlying cause is a mis-formed conscience in which they believe they have justification to be judge, jury, and executioner. As a cosigner to the social contract, I don’t care what their motive is, their act is unjustified and an affront to us all. They need to be dealt with.

Randall: While I disagree with your point (and so do at least one NICU caretaker I know personally), your attempt to use something as rare as they are in proportion of all abortions and those done by Tiller is intellectually dishonest. But to your other point, no matter how much I might disagree with what Tiller did and what his murderer did, I don’t think either deserve to be killed (with or without legal sanction).

[caring for the tragic, anencephalic or conjoined twins or preeclampsic or other teeth-clenching, stomach-wrenching abnormalities of the babies that either die on the warming table or live for a few months of screaming agony instead of having been aborted]

…as my daughter has.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/04/023329.php

one excerpt:
“The whole point of the report is that “right wing” extremism is undergoing a “resurgence” as leaders of extremist groups take advantage of the down economy and the Obama administration to recruit new members. Weirdly, however, the report makes no effort to document any such increased recruitment or extremist activity of any sort. As far as one can tell from the report, “right wing” militias and similar groups may be dying out rather than growing.”

If the tragic event of a person being murdered in their church is a political opportunity for them, then middle America best hold on for what is to be one ugly ride.

So where was Epp and the Obama apologists when it was reported that Obama launched his political career in the home of domestic terrorists (no different than the guy who killed Tiller) and had various associations with Ayres over the years? That didn’t matter to Epp and the Kool-Aid drinkers. The “association” was too tenuous, not important, a figment of right-wingers’ imaginations.

Yet Epp wants to know if two pro-life activists might have, gee, met terrorist Roemer at a meeting or something.

Typical liberal hypocrisy.

That is total BS.

How about the hate that Keith Olbermann spews every night? Do you think that led a wacko Muslim to assassinate an Army recruiter?

This is a slippery slope toward censorship of people you disagree with. Be an intellectually honest liberal (an oxymoron) and admit it, for once.

Bush’s definition of terrorism in the Patriot Act is not the only one, nor the original, classic definition of terrorism.

It is widely known that members of the ultra-right anti-choice group DO network. MSNBC had a very good piece on this last night. Roeder, the man held for the murder of Tiller, actually visited Tiller’s 1993 assailant who shot him twice, Shelly Shannon, in her prison cell several times. He is an active participant in the national network of radical anti-choice activists who all exonerated him in statements yesterday and last night saying Tiller got what he deserved.

Did he act in concert with others? Probably not. But there is a national network of people who help one another try and bring about political and policy change through violent acts. That is the classic definition of terrorism.

What is pathetic is that all the right wing chattering heads like Laura Ingraham, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly, Michelle Malkin, and Sean Hannity have used overheated, violent rhetoric for years and now are shocked when someone acts on their rhetoric.

Words take a toll. In this case, the violent rhetoric of the anti-choice right wing, has led to one of their true believers conducting a terrorist act. Plain and simple.

Now watch all those spineless people whine about being held accountable.

Bill Ayres represented a very small group of liberals in the 1960’s/early 1970’s. The killer of Tiller represents a very small group of abortion opponents. In both cases, these acts should not be used to target a broader group for monitoring and nor should their government issue a report that says:

“Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.”

Braden if you also think this language is appropriate for Obama’s buddy Bill Ayres, the environmental movement, those who trade in class warfare and just about every other progressive movement, I’ll disagree with you but give you credit for being intellectually consistent. Otherwise, to single out right wing groups, you just being partisan and selective. Like Ayres, there is an element of the environmental movement, the redistributionists, etc. who hate and have been willing to commit heinous acts of violence in an attempt serve their cause.

Braden, you were way too quick to jump on this murder and use it as a way to disparage those on the right and those who oppose abortion. Right on your campus, there is probably a couple of thousand fellow students who oppose abortion. They don’t deserve your lumping them together with the person who murkered Tiller. And, they don’t deserve to have their government describe them as “right wing extremists.”

Which bring me to this. Today, an Army recruiter in Arkansas was murdered by, according to CBS radio news, a Muslim convert who apparently hated the military.

Are we going to paint all Muslims as Islamic extremists? No. Of course not.

So we need to quit implying that that pro-lifers are reveling in the death of Tiller.

Take the Oklahoma City Bombing, for example. It was conducted by Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. While they were part of the rightwing militia movement, the FBI has never found proof that any larger organization was involved. This mass murder was commited by only 2 people. So if 2 people can commit terrorism against their own country, don’t you think a lone wolf can as well?

The terrorism targeted by the Patriot Act and the Bush administration was terrorist activity that are part of a larger conspiracy AND INCLUDED A FOREIGN CONNECTION. These efforts of Bush were lambasted by liberals for an infringement of our political and civil liberties. If we now define “terrorism” as individual acts of lone wolves, you are essentially calling for a KGB type spying on individual Americans that should make us all shudder.

The FBI had enhanced their survellience of Tiller’s opponents as a matter of law enforcement. This was good and proper. Unfortunately, it is a reality that nobody except the President is absolutely safe from a committed murderer. While no freedom loving American should want such an expansion of law enforcement powers that this or any murder is practically impossible, it is wholly hypocritical that anyone who criticized Bush’s anti-terrorism efforts for being too big brother to call this terrorism.

I am appalled and saddened by this murder. I condemn any act of vigilante “justice” by anyone. I applaud the FBI for their enhanced efforts to protect Tiller and discern his most serious threats and wish their efforts had been successful. However, I do not consider this terrorism unless we find this is part of a conspiracy (requires multiple actors and cooperators).

Many’s the time I’ve posted something up here that I later wished I hadn’t.

Say what you will about CCK’s old blog, at least it offered you the ability to edit yourself or to delete a remark altogether if you felt so inclined.

Beyond that, perhaps a comparison to Ted Klaudt and Ted the Unibomber (with the unspellable last name) would have been more appropriate, noting that each side has its nutcases.

You’re right. I shouldn’t have refered to it as ‘rightwing’ terrorism. Terrorism is terrorism no matter if it comes from the left or the right. Although I do stand by my claim that this murder is the textbook definition of terrorism- violence for a political purpose, I do not want to appear to be saying that all conservatives or pro-lifers are terrorists. That is obviously not the case.

I’m not trying to make this a political issue. I’m saying that the DHS report warned about domestic terrorism from anti-abortionist extremists. The warning was drowned out by false claims that ‘extremists’ meant anyone who was opposed to abortion. People need to be aware of the problem of both left-wing and right-wing domestic terrorism, and attacking a report warning people about them does not make Americans any safer.

EXACTLY! And that is why these groups are labeled as Domestic Terrorists because they are killing people.

Please, tell me how murdering someone who performs abortions doesn’t fit this definition.

“neither reflect broadly on any other political organization or ideology”

The Defensive Action Statement, from the Army of God-
“We assert that use of lethal force is justifiable provided it is carried out for the purpose of defending the lives of unborn children.”

There is not one person that believes murdering abortion doctors is OK, there are organizations of people that believe it.

“The fact that you make this stupid argument is why the government producing reports like that is wrong – it inspires the wackos to hate”

So the DHS report on domestic terrorism produces domestic terrorism? Right…

Lee, this was the act of an extremist rightwinger and act of domestic terrorism. You can spin it however you want.

The state militias movements, by definition, are considered right wing. Seeking to change the course of public policy through violence is, by definition, considered terrorism.

The extreme right to life movement has, for years, threatened to murder Dr. Tiller and his family, the workers at his clinic, has tried to murder him before, and has vandalized his clinic. The gleeful reaction of Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry is all you need to know about this act being an act of right wing terrorism, just as the Oklahoma City bombing perpetrated by two other militia members, Timothy McVeigh and Terry McNichols.

To take a cheap shot at Tom Daschle in this debate shows the lack of understanding by Schoenbeck of what was happening in Wichita and is a smear of Tom Daschle and minimizing the murder of a physician.

Man, good thing you took yourself out of the Governor’s race with that kind of reasoning ability.

“Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.”

And now, a few months later, we have an act of rightwing terrorism.

And while I don’t especially agree with Dr. Tiller’s practices, it would be more appropriate for Pastor Hickey to comment that the murderer is not exactly on the “up elevator” either.