…to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In the comments about placing HB 1234 on the November Ballot, ‘Jammer’ posted this:

We were blessed in this country by the system our Founding Fathers put in place for us. They were very learned men that thought long and hard about not only what type of system would work but would have the best chance of preserving our freedoms. Fortunately for us they chose a representative republic form of government.

I am not sure what it is about the progressive liberal mindset that makes them intent upon fundamentally changing our country. It makes no sense that we would want to change a system that made the United States the greatest country in the world. However, that logic does not change the agenda of progressive liberals.

I encourage people to read the article in the link below. I think it does a good job shedding some light on this problem. Hopefully after reading it, people will be more knowledgeable about this issue and decline to sign a petition to put this matter on the election ballot.

If people are opposed to the Governor?s plan, they should do everything in their power to influence their elected representative. If that fails and they are still concerned about the outcome they should seek to replace that legislator at the next election. However, they should not pursue the path of creating a ?direct democracy?. History has proven that never works. A direct democracy always ends up with decisions being made based almost exclusively on emotion rather than logic and well thought out deliberations.

These decisions need to be left in the hands of our elected officials. Please don?t let someone convince you otherwise.

http://www.economist.com/node/18586520

Jammer might be on to something here. Direct Democracy has another name ? Mob Rule. Let’s take a look at some of the past public votes

November 2006: A $1.00 tax per pack of cigarettes was passed by the public, some of the money was to be used for Medicaid, education and what was left over was to put in the general fund. The measure passed. Largely due to the idea that smoking is evil and smokers are the offspring of the devil himself, and must pay and pay dearly for their sins.

November 2006 & 2008 The abortion ban. Most people in South Dakota oppose abortion. The bill passed the legislature, signed by the Governor. Still, it failed a public vote. Why? The only reason I can come up with is people were afraid of Kate Looby (from Planned Parenthood) would swoop in with a crack team of Denny Craine style lawyers and make mince meat of the law on the steps of the Supreme Court, costing the state millions in legal and clean up fees.

November 2010 Smoking ban. It wasn’t enough for the evil ones (smokers) to pay for their sins, they also had to repent, and stop sinning (smoking) in public. With this vote, they took away the rights of business and property owners, reclassified their property and demanded the owner enforce the new law. Because the very idea of smokers brings up images of people with horns and speared tails spewing black smoke in to the faces of innocent children, the law was passed.

If the public won’t take the time or effort to learn about the issues, can the public be trusted with matters of state?

From the Honorable State Representative Stace Nelson

Our founding father?s envisioned the legislature as the strongest branch of our government as the voice & representation of the people?s will and the much needed checks and balances of the power of the executive & judiciary branches. When it fails to act as such, the safety valve of the people being able to seek redress on single issues has to be a good thing.

Maybe a review of the first amendment is in order:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

When the government does not act in best interest of the people, the people must act. Referred laws, and initiated measures are only two tools the people have for a redress. ‘We The People’ is the trump card every politician either fears or embraces. When a bill is passed by the legislature, and signed in to law by the Governor, ‘We The People’ can kill it, or reaffirm that law.

Our founding fathers thought the right for the people to petition the government should be in the FIRST amendment. Not second with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, or even the ninth or tenth.  It was that important.  The real power in politics is not the elected, or their handlers.  The real power lays with the people.

Now Jammer’s idea that we should just let our elected representatives deal with such issues. At the national level, we do.   At the local level, the public is invited to vote on items. Sioux Falls voted on the events center, in my township, we voted on how much to pay for fire protection and road maintenance. Local voters, voting on local issues, as it should be.

When our elected legislature make a mistake, it is up to us,’We The People’ to stand up and correct that error. Getting a law passed is not a easy task; referring that law to a public vote, by the people, is even harder. Our system was designed that way. It reserves the public vote only for the most important issues.

I believe the issue that Jammer is getting to is public education of the issues at hand. Once an initiated measure or a referred is on the ballot, the proponents and the opponents, start their marketing blitz. Think of it lobbying, for the entire state. There is a lot of information and misinformation put in to the media stream. Since most people dislike conflict and by extension politics they will tune most of it out.

Our system isn’t perfect. We can and do make mistakes. However for the the most part it works. You can lead a horse to water, however you can make him drink; you can lead a voter to information, however you can’t make him understand it.

70 Replies to “…to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

  1. Hmmm...

    I would like to change the law so it is more difficult to get an issue on the ballot. We refer to many issues.

    1. maybe insist the signatures must be proportional so signatures were required from all counties (by population) instead of just Pennington, Minnehaha, Brown and Lincoln.

    1. Hmmm...

      But of course issues like HB 1234 would make the ballot easily in a different and better system because it has a large group of supporters. I’m just tired of so many lesser measures muddying the ballot.

  2. caheidelberger

    Oh good grief. Someone’s going to start riding the “Republic not a Democracy” hobby horse, aren’t we? Look, I’m supposedly the elitist in the room, yet I believe wholeheartedly in keeping as much decision-making power in the hands of the people as possible. Do conservatives believe in the people or not?

    South Dakota’s initiative and referendum, where citizens circulate petitions, gather signatures, and conduct political campaigns is no more mob rule than the process by which we elect legislators. As MC said, it’s not easy, and it doesn’t happen often, at least not relative to the numerous bills that our Legislature considers each year. But initiative and referendum are a good check on the legislative and executive branches… and right now, with the executive pushing the legislative around, that check is needed more than usual.

    1. Anonymous1

      Corey, first a very well thought out post by you. The only thing I beg to differ with you is that I don’t think the executive branch is pushing around the legislative branch. I think that is open for debate. Inside Republican circles, Duggard doesn’t have as much weight as what you think he might.

      You are right Corey about this “mob rule”. If the people what something to come to a vote then let them take the lead on it. They are doing it in Sioux Falls with the Wal-Mart. I may not agree with what they are doing, but it is their right.

      Word I have gotten with some high up Republicans is that the SDEA is walking into an ambush with this vote. The teachers union and superintendents are going to be hit hard with facts. I was told what they are but cannot repeat them. I will say this, one thing has to do with money.

  3. Troy Jones

    In general, I think the Initiative & Referendum in SD is a good thing. Hmmm’s suggestion for a tweaking MAY have merit as I’ve always thought the “mob” signings outside Howard Wood during football games wasn’t a good thing. People signed just to be left alone. Requiring it to be done across the state could be a good thing. Need to think more about it.

    But, it does point to to a flaw I think with regard to our federal laws. The federal government is a creation of the several States (which are a creation of the people). Yet, the States have virtually no control over the federal government. One thing I think has merit is to divide federal powers (those specifically or clearly implied by the Constitution as federal responsibilities, eg protection of civil liberties, defense, interstate commerce and those which State’s perogatives should be considered). In the latter, if 60% of the States pass a resolution to nullify the law, it goes away.

  4. Troy Jones

    P.S. this will not go universally “pro-conservative.” I see it going anti-statist.

  5. Anonymous

    Maybe there should be an initiated measure on the ballot to amend our state constitution to allow recalls of elected officials like Wisconsin and California have. That way in the future we wouldn’t have to wait 2 years to settle feuds like the Stace Nelson/Roush-Lust matter.

    I bet our elected representatives would better represent their districts if they knew they were replaceable mid-term.

    1. Stace Nelson

      Ironic that you should mention such a bill. Such a bill was the actual confidential research in an email that was disclosed illegally to leadership that was admitted on record to them illegally recieving during the “investigation” without my permission. Ooops! I forgot! They declared themselves cleared of all wrong doings (regardless of the facts)!

      It is everyone’s duty to fight for the proper honest open legitimate legislative process that we are supposed to have in SD.

      1. grudznick

        Even if they snooped your confidential bill research, you should have filed your bill with the Legislature, Mr. Nelson. Why didn’t you file it anyway and then we could roust those buggers?

  6. Charlie Hoffman

    The referendum process usually results in a loss unless there is a direct correlation of the vote in the voters life. The smoking ban was a direct result of the voter at large not liking smokey bars. The abortion vote was by and large a vote of the women of this state telling older men they did not want them controlling what they do with their bodies; especially after having been raped and impregnated. (and please don’t turn this into a moral issue at this time with me–just stating an observation) The gambling referendum showed that most of the non gamblers associate with the idea that gambling is a tax others pay who play and the majority either like to gamble or don’t play. The Cement Plant trust fund referendum to save the future of the fund failed because the voter did not understand what exactly the problem was.

    Most voters will tell you that in every job they have ever been hired for there were steps and processes they were asked to be accountable to. They will feel the same about HB 1234 and having it on the ballot alongside the one cent increase basically giving $80,000,000 to education without checks and balances assures both will lose.

    We are against higher taxes for almost every reason in SD. Those who pay the highest taxes; landowners, business owners and homeowners, might vote for the one cent if it directly lowered their personal property taxes. But we all know that will never happen.

    1. Anonymous

      Those who whine to be unaccountable but can never lose their jobs and who want huge amounts of taxpayer money will surely be smelled out by the voters.

        1. grudznick

          Those mean schools are always trying to shove out good teachers for bad reasons. Among them would be more reserved parking spaces for administrators, no doubt.

    1. Bill Fleming

      Too late:
      http://www.iandrinstitute.org/South%20Dakota.htm

      South Dakota, the first state to adopt initiative and referendum on a statewide level, did so in 1898. The Direct Legislation Record for December of that year gave credit for this achievement to the organizing efforts of Walter E. Kidd of Brown County. Kidd, born in Michigan in 1849, spent “half his mature years” in farming and the other half in “newspaper work” as publisher of the Dakota Ruralist, whose front-page motto was “Socialism in Our Time.? Kidd claimed that it was the “only daily paper in the country advocating socialism.” He had served as chair of the Populist Party State Central Committee, and as state representative from his district.

      South Dakota was also the only state in which the I&R idea originated on home soil. According to an article by a Mr. Doane Robinson, originally published in the St. Paul Pioneer Press and reprinted in the October 1910 Equity Series, I&R ?originated in the fertile mind of Rev. Robert W. Haire, a Catholic clergyman of Aberdeen…. With him the plan was pure invention, for he had not heard of the Swiss I&R when in 1885 he proposed a people’s legislation embodying the features of the present constitutional provision. Father Haire was active in the Knights of Labor and he exploited his scheme widely through the literature of that organization.?

      1. Jammer

        Thanks for documenting the progressives at work. Any person that will support the initiative and referendum process after reading that history is NOT a conservative.

    2. Bill Fleming

      Charlie, I posted a link confirming the history, but it’s hung up in moderation. Here’s another try from a different source (Wikipedia):

      “The modern U.S. system of initiative and referendum originated in the state of South Dakota. South Dakota adopted initiative and referendum in 1898 by a vote of 23,816 to 16,483.”

      So yeah, American I&R was INVENTED in South Dakota. Cool, huh?

  7. Anonymous

    If most people in South Dakota are opposed to abortion then both measures should have passed. I really doubt South Dakotans are intimidated by Kate Lobby or any lawyer. Apparently you don’t trust the voters. Thank goodnesss the drafters of our state constitution did.

  8. Jammer

    People need to study direct democracies. There is a reason our Founding Fathers did not give us a direct democracy, they have never worked and never will.

    http://www.vitalissues.info/download/new/1.pdf

    Initiatives and referendums are the instruments of a direct democracy. They appeal to the liberal mindset and are a part of the populist movement from the 1890?s. This is nothing but the progressive movement that has been going on in the country for a very long time.

    Populists were not only responsible for initiatives and referendums, but also the graduated income tax and the 17th Amendment among other things. These are nothing but tools of progressives.

    Populism is the politics of giving people whatever they want. Conservatism is convincing people to restrain themselves from doing things that will harm them, their families or their country. I hope as people learn more about the dangers of the Initiative and Referendum Process, they will be restrained in its future use.

    I urge conservatives to study these issues carefully. I believe that once you give careful thought to this matter you will begin to understand the things that progressives are pushing once again. This is nothing new. It is the same ?old girl in a new dress?. Progressives have the agenda of progressively changing our Constitution because it does not suit them. Unfortunately, they are often able to do it and people don?t even realize the damage they have done.

    1. caheidelberger

      Um… could you point to the examples of the dysfunctional direct democracies that our Founding Fathers considered during their deliberations in Philadelphia in 1787?

      1. Jammer

        The Founding Fathers carefully researched all of the prior governments in history to determine what system would be best for their new country. They chose elements from various places including ancient Anglo-Saxon and Israelite law. They took one of their most brilliant choices from Polybius. And while Polybius may have advocated the separation of power into three separate branches of government executive, legislative and judicial, it was the Founding Fathers that actually put the first such system in place.

        You ask what examples of failed direct democracies they reviewed, well they didn?t have far to go. They merely had to walk down the street to local New England town hall meetings where direct democracy was practiced. If that level of dysfunctional direct democracy government was not enough to convince them that it would never work, they had other examples including the Greeks.

        http://www.enotes.com/topics/democracy

        1. Job Creator

          Jammer, where were you during the part of college where they taught us about the Enlightenment?

    2. Bill Fleming

      Anyone who wishes to make the argument that the legislators in either State or US congress are more intelligent than the rank and file US citizen does so at one’s own peril, Jammer.

      There was a time when that perhaps may have been the case, but that time has long since passed.

      On the contrary, one could argue persuasively that there are, among our various legislators, some of the most ignorant, doltish human beings who have ever walked the planet. I’m sure you have your list of names, even as I have mine.

      1. Jammer

        That is an inaccurate statement. I will admit that there may be a few exceptions that might give you partial credit but it would be a minimal amount. For the sake of discussion let?s say you were right. Just whose fault would it be? I don?t think it would be the legislators. It would be the voters fault. They were the ones that voted them into office. If the voters are not smart enough to elect QUALIFIED candidates, just how in the world would they ever be smart enough to actually consider and vote on the legislation?

        If your voters are so smart, they should be working to solve the problem every two years by recruiting qualified candidates and then electing them. I suggest that should be where you spend your time in the coming months rather than trying to usurp the responsibility of the legislature by using the referendum process. Continually trying to degrade the responsibility and authority of the state legislature is nothing less than an attempt to destroy our representative republic form of government.

  9. anon

    The above comment…over this guys head…is one of the big concerns with our I&R laws in South Dakota.

    This fall, we’ll also be voting on the large project refund issue. This is an extremely complicated issue that will be nearly impossible for the average voter to get his arms around. But, at the same time, it’s a very important issue for economic development in South Dakota.

    There comes a time when we need to understand that the legislature hears hours and hours of testimony on these issues, and the average voter hears a few seconds.

    Ben and his band of misfits have chosen to make this a political issue, and forced a vote that will be decided by a vast majority of voters who have no idea what they’re voting on.

    At least with issues like tobacco, abortion, etc…they understood the issue. There needs to be some way of differentiating what’s referrable and what shouldn’t be.

    1. Anonymous

      What’s so tough to understand about the Governor’s large project refund? The governor wants to take contractors excise taxes paid by thousands of small and medium sized businesses (and ultimately their customers) and hand the money to a few large businesses. Essentially, an upward redirection of wealth. Call it socialism if you will. Besides the cash payments from taxpayers to large companies, those large companies will also be eligible for additional tax breaks from other programs. Handing out 22% of the revenue generated by the contractors excise tax, necessarily means that money is not available for other priorities like education funding, medicare or fill in your own priority.

      Why do we ask small business to subsidize big business?

      Why must we pay companies to do business in SD? We have few regulations, low tax burdens, low wages, low work comp rates, relatively few unions, few workers rights, low cost of land, the list goes on.

      While we’re at it, why must taxpayers pay $5,000 per job to an out-of-state company to recruit workers from out-of-state for businesses? Would that money be better spent giving people already in SD tuition credit to train them for jobs? Or maybe the companies could recruit and train their own workforce? Just a thought.

    2. Les

      I’m not so certain on this anon. One of the comments I received while contacting legislators when Gov Rounds pulled 2.3mil from the Aero Fund for the mine was:”isn’t that about taking the governor’s airplanes away”?. No mam, this is part of his proposed budget. “Oh”

      Or Rep Noems response in Rapid City on the Nat Defense law just signed in late December, Rep. Noem asked puzzledly if he was talking about an actual law that had been passed. President Obama signed it a month and a half earlier. Back to vote on this to see what is in it?

      To the Aero Fund extortion again, another legislator replied, “its not right, but we have the authority”.

      A blind voter shooting 50/50 has a better chance of doing what is right than our legislators show us above being coerced while not taking to effort to be informed. Can I get an Amen?

      1. Jammer

        Once again, that is an inaccurate statement. I will admit that there may be a few exceptions that might give you partial credit but it would be a minimal amount. For the sake of discussion let?s say you were right. Just whose fault would it be? I don?t think it would be the legislators. It would be the voters fault. They were the ones that voted them into office. If the voters are not smart enough to elect QUALIFIED candidates, just how in the world would they ever be smart enough to actually consider and vote on the legislation?

        If your voters are so smart, they should be working to solve the problem every two years by recruiting qualified candidates and then electing them. I suggest that should be where you spend your time in the coming months rather than trying to usurp the responsibility of the legislature by using the referendum process. Continually trying to degrade the responsibility and authority of the state legislature is nothing less than an attempt to destroy our representative republic form of government.

      2. anon

        I don’t have any first-hand knowledge of the defense law, but I do know that the fund transfer from the aero fund balance happened at the last minute in appropriations…many of the people who care about the fund found out about it before the legislature did. It has nothing to do with lack of knowledge, it has much more to do with timing… believe me, one day later, the legislators knew MUCH more than the average voter about this issue.

        1. Les

          anon says@”the legislators knew MUCH more than the average voter about this issue.”

          Please explain how taxes and fees necessary for federal match on airports paid by pilots going down the hole in Lead proves knowledge anon?

          I emailed a large number of legislators and received almost every conceivable type of answer. Another answer hits me now: “Gov Rounds says this money came through ARRA funding”, which is not true. Whether the Gov said that or not I don’t care, I do care this legislator couldn’t even ask the right people to get her facts straight.

          Rep Wink was one of the few if only members that even bothered to question pulling aero funding during the hearing on that piece.

          1. Les

            When I heard incorrect information from our legis on the Aero Funds I replied with data I had received from sources close to the heart of the matter.

            No more than a phone call or email would have verified my info.

            1. Les

              We are about 3.5mil out of the Aero Fund. Please explain how pilot registration fees, aircraft registration fees and fuel tax belong in the general budget.

              We have federal match needs that are increasing and will continue to increase anon. I’d like an answer as I do believe you are in the middle of this.

    3. grudznick

      If it’s too complicated for an old guy like me to understand then none of the other goofy young fellows who are probably dumber should get to vote on it either. There’s your letmuss test.

  10. Anonymous

    Conservatives (religious) were certainly singing a different tune when they initiated measures to repeal video lottery. Who is being the elitist now? So called conservatves it would appear.

  11. Job Creator

    Some of you, particularly the Jammer don’t seem to understand that the Legislature gets its authority from the “People.” I know it’s a stretch for you to understand that with your idealogical foundation based in the Benevolent Dictatorship model. However, until you can change the source of legislative power you are just going to have to live with the fact that sometimes the “People” have to override the stupidity of the legislature, which is often influenced by lobbyists and inside deals that turn the legislators’ good sense out to pasture. Thank goodness that ability still exists.

    1. Jammer

      The people’s job is to REPLACE incompetent legislators, not override them. That has been their job since SD became a state. However, it would appear from some comments on here that it is the VOTERS that are not doing their job. Apathy plus a lack of understanding seems to be some of the main ingredients in this deficiency on their part.

      A lot of people like to criticize the Governor, Legislators and other elected officials. However, it would seem that they should be looking in the mirror when they are criticizing people. If we have incompetent politicians, it is nobody?s fault but the electorate.

      1. Job Creator

        I agree with some of what you say Jammer. But haven’t you seen a legislator show up early in his or her career with the best intentions in mind and then slowly be consumed by the power structure? I have seen this happend to literally dozens of legislators over the years. And, as we all know, the incumbents always have some sort of advantage either great or small.

        You are right about apathy and ignorance being a big part of this, but the inside power structure, particularly in the Republican caucus gets those idealogues in line and keeps them there. Witness the huge mess they have had to deal with this past six months.

        In the end, the peoples’ responsibility is exactly that which they have reserved for themselves in the founding documents. And in South Dakota that responsibility apparently is to recall stupid (and/or “smart”) legislation which has been passed by the legislature and signed into law by the governor.

        Live with it.

        1. Jammer

          The 18th Amendment of the US Constitution was repealed. There are several others that were passed during the progressive era that also need to be repealed. We should not live with legislation that is detrimental to our country or state.

          1. Job Creator

            1. You’re mixing categories here, so as to make it impossible to have a discussion based on reason. Comparing the US Constitution to the populist South Dakota constitution?

            2. Aren’t you the guy who said earlier (reference your own posts) that we should be forced to live with legislation that the legislature has passed in order to protect us from our stupid selves (or something like that)?

            3. Are the only stupid amendments those that were passed during the progressive era? Please elaborate.

            1. Jammer

              1. I am comparing the form of state government with the US government. They are BOTH representative republics and that is the thread of commonality between them. I guess it must be REASONABLE that you are not able to understand that.

              2. NO – I said that we need to rely on our elected officials to make the best decisions for us and that it is much more likely that they would do a better job than uniformed emotional mobs of people. And the way you get rid of poor or stupid legislation is to elect competent and qualified legislators that have the same principles and values that you hold. You do need to pay closer attention.

              3. No of course not, there are others. However, the progressives are a danger to our republic and ALL of the legislation that they have passed is probably detrimental to our country and state.

              1. MC Post author

                First we need to elect competent and qualified legislators and repersentatives.

                From what I have seen, state elections isn’t so much who is more competent or quilified, it is more about who has the most money to burn, who make more noise, and whose name is out there more often (often the result of more money.) Sometimes its about family connections. We need to become better informed about who is running, and where they stand on various issues. That also means we need to be informed about the issues at hand.

                1. but

                  We don’t even have an idea (other than the report cards put out) on how they vote once they are in!!

                  We have life long Democrats who flip partys to run as Republicans that have taken over the SDGOP.

                  Just look at Obamacare that has been rammed through by a “Republican” controlled legislature and executive branch!

                  1. MC Post author

                    The problem I have with these ‘Report Cards’ is they too often incomplete. They also don’t tell why a legislator voted the way he or she did.

              2. Bill Fleming

                Clearly, Jammer thinks the people’s job is to vote when they’re told to, and how they’re told to, appoint a king and a fiefdom, and then shut the hell up and let royalty rule. I’m guessing he most likely thinks voting should also be limited to as few people as possible, and wants to see to this by gerrymandering and draconian election laws. Some patriot, this one. We fought a revolution to get rid of ideas like that.

                1. Jammer

                  That is a totally inaccurate and unfair statement. What is it with progressive liberals that when they disagree with someone?s point of view they can create a completely false impression of what was said in an attempt to discredit the other person? They are absolutely shameless and then they wonder why nobody wants to work with them to find solutions.

                2. Job Creator

                  Bill, Jammer epitomizes that old dogmatic conservative philosophy. All progressives = BAD. All RINOS = BAD. All conservatives who think like Jammer = GOOD.

                  Repeal ALL legislation resembling anything progressive because it is DANGEROUS for our country. Adios to the Uniform Commercial Code, the Uniform Probate Code, Civil Rights, Child Labor Protection Laws and on and on and on…

                  Jammer, thanks for your positive contributions to the thread. It’s like a breath of hog barn air…

                3. Jammer

                  Oh here we go again with the progressive liberal cries that ?it?s for the kids?, ?it?s for the sick or whatever. They try to make everybody believe that liberals are for nothing but compassion, mercy and the environment, when in fact they are for nothing but STUPIDITY.

                  They want to keep kids from working on farms. Anybody that has hired employees on a national basis realizes that Midwestern people tend to be very good hardworking employees. The only thing that is better than hiring someone from the Midwest to fill a position is to find a Midwest kid that grew up working on a farm.

                  http://www.redstate.com/laborunionreport/2011/11/29/obamas-labor-department-looks-to-take-the-family-out-of-family-farms/

                  http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20120304/GPG03/203040564/Farm-work-isn-t-child-s-play-some-say

                  There are thousands of other examples of stupid progressive legislation. Here is one meant to help the disabled that will probably end up having huge negative consequences.

                  http://www.hospitalitylaboremploymentlawblog.com/2012/01/articles/ada-update-new-swimming-pool-regulations-take-effect-soon/

                  You can always count on progressive liberals with their tired worn out chants about how conservatives hate the kids, the sick, the poor and of course our environment. In reality conservatives do not hate any of those things; they just hate the stupidity of progressives.

                  1. Job Creator

                    Thanks for the links Jammer. Apparently, after reading the articles, you DO support 14-year-old hired child laborers handling cancer-causing herbicides and pesticides on the farm. Yeah, they’re safe – you could probably drink them… You need to address the other issues there. It was progressives who pushed forward the UCC, UPC, Civil Rights – all while conservatives fought tooth and nail against them, all the while warning us that they would be the ruination of America. The Conservatives have proved to be on the wrong side of these issues over and over and over again. Just as you are on the wrong side of every single post you have responded to in this thread and others. Jammer, you are what we call out on our farm where we do NOT allow 14 year old kids to handle the herbicides and pesticides – “Not the sharpest tool in the shed” or maybe “An apple shy of a full bushel” or “Smart as a sackful of rocks” or “Overexposed to herbicides and pesticides.”

                  2. Jammer

                    I will stick with my belief that kids that work on a farm are much better employees than those that did not. Those kids learn a lot of things about responsibility and safety.

                    There is certainly a scale of responsibility that is practiced by most people when their kids or other kids work on the farm. The jobs being done by the kids are assigned based upon age and responsibility level. However, as somebody who probably never really held a job or created one, you probably are not able to understand that. So, maybe you should just go to another topic that you might understand. March Madness is going on you know and you are probably better suited to a discussion on that. You seem like the type of person that spent their childhood watching basketball games and not working.

  12. Bill Fleming

    Stace Nelson will like this idea I suspect. There is no longer any reason why legislators should have to travel to Pierre to do the people’s business. It can all be done online, in plain sight, from the legislators’ home town, where they can be more in touch with their constituents and farther away from the lobbyists, the bully pulpits, and the good-old- boy, partisan-party armtwisters.

    The current system is not unlike the feedlots where the herd is rounded up, corralled, fattened, and led to the slaughter. There is a better way. Power to the peeps.

    1. Jammer

      Legislation, especially complex legislation, requires extensive research, thoughtful consideration and thorough debate. It is that last factor that renders your suggestion unworkable. The people voting on the issue need to hear the arguments from all sides. It is only then can a person make a final decision on how they should vote on the issue.

      1. Bill Fleming

        They can do that online the same way we are all doing it here, sans lobbyists and bullies.

        1. Jammer

          There is no substitute for open in person debate and discussion of an issue. The type of discussion that goes on here and other blogs is meaningless when it comes to resolution of issues.

          1. Bill Fleming

            The recent revolutions throughout the middle east were all organized and conducted over Facebook, Twitter and other social media. Strategies, decisions, action plans etc. can be (and are) conducted on-line worldwide. Major worldwide corporations routinely run this way, as are many if not most of the world’s governments. You quite simply don’t have any idea what you are talking about. Not a clue.

            1. Jammer

              It is easy for companies and others to communicate via the web. However, that conversation for the most part is one way type of communication where information is MOSTLY presented.

              The discussion required to debate legislation is much different. The power of persuasion resides with PEOPLE not some new form of technology. It takes a small mind to neglect the need for the personal involvement of people in critical issues like legislation. Only people like you would be willing to accept a Facebook friendship as the same as having a true friend. Our society is doomed if there are too many people like you in the world.

                  1. Jammer

                    I would not be interested in working for food stamps that is the only financial medium that you guys use isn’t it?

                    Oh yeah, I have been involved with using video conferencing since the mid 90’s. We routinely used them and I can’t tell you the number of times that when the video conference was over how the discussion would turn to who was going to get on a plane and go get them to understand what we want them to do. There is no substitute for personal contact.

                    I guess the exception to that is when one has a disagreeable personality. Is that perhaps your problem with it?

  13. whatisupdoc

    We are now a sucker society as we believe 99% of publish conversations and fact statements as being the total truth. We the informed are fully aware that it is 99% false information sent by people with a personal agenda of what they want not what the general public wants.

  14. Anonymous

    Its Obamas fault he was The president when the house voted for house bill 1234so blame him for it.