I just caught this on facebook, and thought it brought up a few items worthy of discussion, especially taking a contrarian viewpoint just for the sake of it.
There’s been a bit of hullabaloo over the group, and as you might notice by Steve Hickey’s comment below, some demonizing/dehumanizing (see “the industry is slime comment) going on. But, are their actions worthy of the coverage that former Obama Campaign manager Steve Hildebrand is trying to whip up by calling his buddies in the media to cover?
Noting the post:
First, regarding Steve Hickey’s comment implying there’s something wrong that the group is “in front of Target today collecting signatures and their petitions haven’t been approved by the Secretary of State.” I think my reply would be “so what?”
There are lots of groups who informally gather names on petitions, with some trying to gauge support on an issue so as to determine whether or not there is support for the change. And I mean lots. If there weren’t, then I suspect change.org wouldn’t exist.
From a political organization standpoint, if you’ve got a group of people hired, and are waiting for the AG and Secretary of State to complete their process, do you really want them sitting on their butts getting paid for doing nothing? Why not send them out to get signatures of interested people that you can easily go back to. The people who signed before are clearly identified supporters who signed a preliminary petition of support. It should be child’s play to send people back to them to get a signature on a real petition.
It’s not like they can use them otherwise. They’re signed and dated.
And then, there’s the other part where the Reverend Hickey tries to “raise” the level of discourse – “The industry is slime, and they don’t care about anything but staying in business.”
Pardon me, but how dare they try to stay in business! Businesses: Steve Hickey believes you are now there to lose money and go bankrupt. How dare you invest money, build buildings to house your company, hire and pay staff, and think you are allowed to earn a profit off of your efforts. What in the hell do you think this is, a society based on capitalism? We changed to socialism a long time ago, dammit!
And that’s the point. In our allegedly free society, you should be free to choose to patronize a legal business, and do business with them, Or, you’re free not to. No one is holding a gun to your head.
You know, there’s lots of things to get outraged about. Let’s save the shock and outrage for things such as a drug using parent (allegedly) killing their child. Or a government holding a pipeline project hostage for 7 years.
But someone signing up like minded people to support their cause? Or *gasp* thinking that the free enterprise system is alive and well in these United States?
I just can’t gin up the same level of umbrage that others with more time on their hands are able to.
Steve is just frustrated working with a liberal contingent that cannot discern the difference. I sign unofficial and nonbinding petitions all the time. Then again, I do not smoke pot or require other people to tell me how to think or what to do, and I can read and understand the English language. Liberals are a completely different animal. Steve needs to understand them before he can control them. While signing the intended petition may seem like an incredible task for liberals, it can be accomplished if broken down into very simple steps that, when successfully accomplished individually, they are given some sort of reward. Over time I believe liberals have the capacity to learn the difference between these petitions if we all pitch in and do our part.
Hmmm… Wasn’t there a narrative in the paper recently about the petition process several years ago? Didn’t it go something like: “They were at the Hartford Town Council meeting collecting signatures for Steve Hickey as his nomination petitions had been rejected by the Secretary of State. When he turned those in, he signed that he had witnessed them, even though he hadn’t. He is slime because all he cared about was staying in office.”
Were they not harassing Hildebrand’s business? Didn’t they appeared to be threatening a reporter on camera? They have a petition that claims to limit interest rates and does the opposite. The petition is also designed, apparently, to confuse voters.
The whole industry’s purpose it to take advantage of the poor or uninformed to enrich a few heavy-handed “lenders”. And you want us to believe that this the Republican way? Nobody is “holding a gun to your head” so its OK?
No way. Charging the poor higher than 36% in interest is an outrage.
Then are you prepared to step up, and lend someone who has undergone bankruptcy or a poor credit score money for rent because they don’t get paid until a week after rent is due?
Put your money where your principles are.
Exactly. You ban these businesses, and you send the credit underground where it already exists. The need will never go away. It would be better to educate lenders on what they are getting into, rather than banning various types of loan agreements.
Some folks are desperate. Some are not well educated and others are handicapped. And yes, some speak very little english.
So….. Woohoo! What a gold mine. Take advantage. How about 100% interest compounded daily? What a great service these “lenders” are doing.
No. I am not comfortable with all of that.
Anon says “I should put my money where my principles are” and become the lender.
Well. I am also opposed to abortion on demand. With your logic, does that mean I have to be willing to adopt every child? Wait… I am gay. You may want to think that over.
Why don’t Hildebrand and Hickey start a lending business themselves? They could lend money at very low rates, and undercut all the higher priced lenders.
good grief, Pat. My thought reading this was twofold. First that you have nearly bent all the way over backwards to avoid seeing some of the best examples in years of sleazy politics. Second, that you’ve never been anywhere near a petition drive.
Sending out circulators early with one sided unapproved petitions never happens in a legit campaign . Polls test public sentiment. I laughed out loud at your suggestion that they have a team on the payroll and they need to be doing something. BS.
These sigs are decoy at best, and fraud in the works most likely. They will simply run the signatures through a copier and put the approved side on later and turn them in with the rest.
Steve Hickey – “They will simply run the signatures through a copier and put the approved side on later and turn them in with the rest.” A helpful tip from one ballot fraudster to another?
Pardon me Steve, but you assume a lot without knowing much. I’ve been kicking around politics since 1988, thank you very much. I’m quite familiar with petition drives down to the minutia of them.
Your claiming “They will simply run the signatures through a copier and put the approved side on later and turn them in with the rest.” is just more unfounded mischaracterization and demonizing your opponents.
All of those signatures are dated with when they have been signed. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO MERELY XEROX THE LANGUAGE ON THE FRONT AND INCLUDE THEM AS THEY WILL HAVE BEEN SIGNED BEFORE THE APPROVED CIRCULATION DATE OF THE PETITION.
You are critical of me, because you claim I don’t see “sleazy politics.” That brings up another issue which brings to mind words you once used in how those in public life should behave:
Read that here. http://dakotawarcollege.com/republican-legislator-steve-hickey-becomes-published-author-again-is-it-political-religious-or-both/
You criticize me because I choose not to sign on to your crusade, and am open to the other side’s views, while you’re out there using words like “slimy” and “fraud,” neither of which seem to fit in with being “nice” and “kind.”
Believe it or not, not everyone is going to agree with you. That does not mean that they’re bad, slimy or fraudulent. Frankly, that smacks more of Stace Nelson at his worst during his primary, and most of us – including myself – thought you were better than that.
Men of good character can disagree. That does not mean they are bad people. it just means they disagree.
Pat – Thus my surprise when I read your comments seemingly so naive about petition drives. Yes they can copy the second side. In this case you are correct the signatures won’t be counted but that is only because the SOS and our group will be on it like flies. To the rest of your comments I’ll let it go. The industry is sleazy – hearing what they do to people and how they play dirty in the states they’ve been capped will disgust you. I’m still kind.
The Great and Powerful Hickey has spoken. So it has been said, so it shall be. All praise Hickey.
Hickey doesn’t care about poor people. Hickey only cares about Hickey.
Mr. Powers,
As a devout Rounds supporter, can you tell us how Nelson pointing out specific bills Rounds & Rhoden supported/opposed on issues (which contradicted their campaign rhetoric) was dishonest or “not nice.”
Also, can you tell us when Mike is going to bring legislation to repeal Obamcare and get rid of the Dept of Education as he promised during the election..
Good to see the “big Bull Elephant Conservative Republican” still has the establishment supporting moderates in a tizzy.
Who is this Stace Nelson you speak of?
Nelson supporter, I was referring to Stace being a bit of a jerk during the campaign to everyone who disagreed with him, or supported someone else.
Mr Powers,
I could not imagine the frustrations the man felt running as an actual conservative, with an actual conservative record, against two candidates who claimed to be just like him and were running on their records, but were not and did not.
That being said, in this age of technology, please provide us all the recorded examples of Mr Nelson behaving badly to so many people.
Steve- you must be on crack to think that anybody is trying to use signatures from an advisory petition for an official initiated measure petition. I am appalled by your words and behavior. You accuse and accuse and accuse. Take a look at your Holier-than-thou attitude. Take a break from the self righteous BS. I agree with the other statements- you spent the last year criticising Bosworth for falsifying a petition when you YOURSELF did the SAME THING!!! Does this mean that you are also circulating a decoy petition for slimy overlords?
I’ve heard stupid stuff before but to say this is impending fraud? Pat doesn’t know the petition process? Serious?
A guy should have to walk around with “I’m a dumb butt” stamped on his head.
Troy what do you call it to collect sigs on one sided sheets and add the second side later? Fraud.
I know Pat has much campaign experience. Again, that’s why it was shocking to hear him say with a straight face that :
“if you’ve got a group of people hired, and are waiting for the AG and Secretary of State to complete their process, do you really want them sitting on their butts getting paid for doing nothing? Why not send them out to get signatures of interested people that you can easily go back to. ”
That hasn’t happened ever. Couldn’t believe it came out of Pat’s mouth because I know he’s not a dumbbutt.
Steve says: “This hasn’t happened ever”
SO WHAT?!? Get off your high horse Hickey. So, the 18% folks are running a campaign that seeks to promote a better idea than yours, GET OVER IT!
Steve, I know you think you are fighting against slime, sleazy and evil and all that righteousness stuff but it must be seriously clouding your brain because this exchange really is a special kind of stupid.
BTW, you never submitted that rational explanation for posting here on your arguments for this initiative. I’ll still submit it if you like so long as it is rational and not dominated by ad hominem attacks and everyone against you is on the side of evil.
The old style partisan politics is what propelled us to this great place in American Democracy we are today. My only question is if enough people here call me a Liberal does it make it so? And finally if I’ve been labeled but finally come up with broad reaching good legislation do I automatically subvert to the old label or can we have an honest conversation? Government won’t allow lots of things people would love to do every day. Why allow legal loan sharks?
Troy this was not a bullet pointed at you either my friend.
Charlie,
Calling for a discussion that includes “Why allow legal loan sharks?” is the same as if I ask you “Have you quit beating your wife? Yes or no.” And such a discussion is a long ways from honest.
Here is an honest question: Would you or do you imagine there is a businessperson who would set up a business to do the following: Lend $500 to a person with extremely bad credit history for two weeks and get paid back a total of $506.90. The seven dollars of interest has to cover the cost of originating the loan, cost of loan losses, cost of collection, cost of capital, and generate a profit.
You and I both know this is economically not viable as a business. So, at the end of the day, you know this bill eliminates the pay day lending industry. Thus, it effectively eliminates as an option this class of potential borrower from borrowing money in the open (not from underground lenders) for a short-term cash emergency. Besides underground lenders, their only option is to depend on the generosity of a neighbor, their landlord, the guy fixing their car, etc. or not get their car fixed, not pay their rent, whatever the emergency is.
If you are ok with legally denying these people options that you have and making them deal with the consequences, stand up and say that is what you desire to do. Or stand up and say you know what is best for them because your smarter and they need your paternalism. Or stand up and create a charity that will provide the short-term fix they need. That is honest and I can respect that.
But calling someone “loan sharks” (real loan sharks break legs) because they need more than $7 as compensation (that is what a $500 loan for two weeks at 36% APR will allow) to lend to people with dismal credit. Well that is dishonest.
Exactly!
They may not be “loan sharks” but they sure don’t play nice. Harassing Hildebrand? What the hell is that?
Stupid and counterproductive for starters.
I’d say its using Democrat tricks against a Democrat and then hilarious when he whines about the tactic. NOT FAIR they are fighting back.
Lets have a real debate here about the underlying issue. Steve & Steve are proposing regulations to put payday lenders out of biz, sure, but will you guys at least admit that what you’re doing is literately telling consenting adults they cannot engage in a financial transaction/agreement according to their own free will? Perhaps the lenders here have steep interest rates, but my understanding is that it pays for the amount of risk involved with lending to the *unlendable*.. the folks who get those loans can’t go to normal banks or apply for normal loans, so they go to the ones with higher rates *paying for the risk that they might not pay it back*.
You’re fighting for the poor by means of legislating an industry out of business and bullying adults to not let them be adults. You’re attempting to save stupid people from their own stupidity. Why? Is there a net gain for the community? Can we just let those adults take out their own bad loans if they want to, after all, they’re fully aware of what they’re getting into. There’s risk on both sides, and last time I checked, if you pay the loan back on time the interest rate isn’t as bad as you make it sound. In fact I got a loan from SpeedyCash online when I was in a tight bind for $500 and when I paid it back 2 weeks later my total was $572. That’s really not the end of the world and I’m just one example of a person who consented to that type of interest and I held up my end of the deal and paid the loan back in full.
I’m not defending the payday industry I’m just defending human freedom, a dying concept……….
the movie “it’s a wonderful life” is a LIE. bedford falls doesnt exist in the good universe while potterville is safely locked in the bad-dream of the “what if” universe where a man’s absence results in unrestrained evil.
BOTH EXIST ON AND IN EACH OTHER. as driven as rep. hickey is to take up this cause, with the goal of driving predatory lenders out of the business, it will only cause more problems when a whole class of people who have limited options find they now have no options.
jammer was always right. cronyism is the prime corruption in this country today, and until we fix that, no lesser or more surgical fix is going to do anything more than destabilize a problematic system.
From the Argus Leader (May 18th)… Chuck Brennan’s Dollar Loan Store is a rising force in the $46 billion dollar payday loan industry, earning Brennan what he calls “well north of a hundred million dollars”.
Jealous? Not me. A little nauseated though.
In South Dakota, profit is not a dirty word. If Chuck Brennen has found a way to provide a needed service and make a legal profit then good for him.
Why on earth are Republicans supporting Government regulations on business?
Government trying to save people from themselves.
You don’t want high rates don’t go there…36% interest is not exactly cheap either…people like our country SPEND too much…what happened to saving up for something?
Nothing is wrong with making a huge profit unless you do so off the exploitation of the poor through a defective financial product intended to be a debt trap. Then consumer protections are needed. Call me holier than thou is you want but we need ethics in medicine and we surely need it in the world of finance. The Christian vantage point from which most of us reading this come from has lots to say about lending to the poor, interest, and exploitation.
Troy’s calculus doesn’t fit the reality of their business model and how they make money on multiple loans.
The sky hasn’t fallen in the 16 states where these loans are capped and these fears that the poor will have nowhere to go are unfounded. Some people shouldn’t be lent money because they can’t pay it back. It’s called responsible lending.
I’ve not commented on this because until now but here is an update… The AG says there is no basis for the allegations against me in Hubbels petition issue. All but one in the argus story against be have changed their story. I’ve offered to take a lie detector test. None of that matters because the argus won’t do a follow up story saying it was found to be nothing. In politics you are guilty even if later shown innocent.
When did the AG say this?