Lora Hubbel and the Math Curriculum of Death.

Pat Powers

Seriously, I don’t actively go looking for this stuff. But it’s hard not to notice when a Gubernatorial Candidate actually tries to link Common Core educational standards to an increase of suicide rates.

It would be as if someone said during the Bush years that ‘No Child Left Behind’ was related to an increase in mining explosions. It’s pretty much just crazy talk.

103 thoughts on “Lora Hubbel and the Math Curriculum of Death.”

    1. Must be a comment from the left. big-government/2015/02/25/shock-common-cores-fordham-institute-is-not-really-conservative/

      1. When I use to substitute, I had many students come up and cry to me about CC. Their love of learning was stripped away from them. Just look at how many children are now on medication for anxiety, depression, ADDH etc. No I did not witness a suicide. You might want to talk to Representative May about that. I witnessed that students were not allowed to talk about common core.

        1. That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. I am a teacher, I have substituted all grade levels. There isn’t a kid in school ANYWHERE lamenting common core. They go to class without a thought of the curriculum standards. Quit telling fish stories to support your agenda.

          1. AA – My child struggled with their math homework for years, and we were frustrated because we couldn’t help. Yes, students go to class with other things on their minds, but when it comes time to get class work and homework finished, they’ll stop trying if it’s too difficult to understand.

            I substituted in MT and many students shut down and off when presented with material their teachers couldn’t even explain. They may have no idea what “curriculum” means, but they sure know if they can or cannot meet standards CC requires.

            Your voice is worthy to be heard, just as Tara’s is. Don’t discount someone just because you disagree or have a different story to tell. You will stop a productive conversation from taking place.

          4. AA
            You say…”There isn’t a kid anywhere lamenting common core!” …WRONG!! You’re acting like you know more than anyone else just because you’ve been a substitute in the classroom. I am a mother of a child who has had to deal with these ridiculous standards including the math. Many times kids come over to my house after school, and they are frustrated. They think they’re stupid because they can’t get the math. Yes, children are very frustrated with the math and with the other standards being implemented in the other classes. Don’t think for a second that the stress couldn’t cause some child to commit suicide, ESPECIALLY when the school surveys encourage the children to commit suicide if they feel sad or hopeless for more than two weeks. These kids do feel hopeless and very confused with these standards and curriculum! It’s time you get educated instead of ridiculing other people who have a different opinion than you do. Thank you Lora for caring so much about our kids and wanting to stop the dumbing down of our children through common core standards and curriculum. These kids are getting the message that we don’t care how frustrated they are with the math and other subjects when the schools keep shoving it down their throat’s.

  7. The simplest thing can trigger a suicide. When a detective explained why someone close to us took their life, he said generally there’s a combinations of factors. Could stress of school and pressure from parents to get high marks be a cause for suicide, yes.

    Common Core is a joke and often made a mockery of on shows I live-stream, one in particular is TheBlaze with Glenn Beck. He’s also written a book about CC. CRTV’s Michelle Malkin has great investigative episodes about issues in the public school system and CC curriculum. My suggestion is to pull your kids from public school and home school or pick a private school. School Choice!

    What I see happen over and over is attacks on people instead of tackling the problem, issue or topic brought up for discussion. We are shut out, our voices muffled with noise about who we are and if we’re presenting issues in the appropriate, politically appropriate way…The Left’s Way.

    A father wrote a check to his son’s school using CC, said if the school could figure out the actual amount, the donation was theirs to keep. Fortunately, the FB post went viral and more attention was brought to the issue, not the person presenting it. I hope Betsy DeVos advocates for states and local govts to get their rights back and decide how best to teach their students. Teaching to the test doesn’t actually educate the majority of students, but teachers certainly get paid for high test scores.

      1. Focus on the issues and eventually common ground could be found:)

        However, there are a few issues the opportunity for compromise just doesn’t exist, abortion is one of them. Killing the elderly or depressed is another we have yet to hear a convincing case for.

  8. This is the same drum beat of the Tonchi weaver group “citizens for stupidity “ out of rapid.

    1. Doc,
      You should appreciate Tonchi Weaver and the group she’s in! They have saved taxpayers over $500,000,000! It’s people like you who obviously don’t understand the constitution and Government overreach. Tonchi Weaver if you are reading this link, I would like to thank you personally for all of your hard work and your dedication to our city and it’s taxpayers, as well as the students in the education system. I know you have fought for the kids to be able to have a quality education, one they are clearly not getting now. I would love to see you in Office! You clearly know more than this “Doc” ever will!

        1. Tonchi Weaver does NOT circulate petitions to raise taxes. She has been instrumental as well as SD Citizens for Liberty in stopping the $434 million Civic Center expansion, stopping the wheel tax, and stopping the opt out to raise your taxes $30 million! South Dakota citizens for liberty and Tonchi were able to bring these issues to the people for a vote. Citizens and taxpayers clearly voted all of these things down. SD CFL and Tonchi are for less taxes and less government. She deserves a huge thank you for all of her hard work in bringing this continual money grabbing and tax raising to the awareness of the people. God Bless these folks!

            1. Barb and Tonchi are notaries. They provided a notary service for Jordan’s petitions. They did not circulate them nor did they sign them. Don’t pass judgment on something you don’t know about. Things aren’t always as they seem!

              1. HAHAHAHAHA! That’s funny!

                The caption on the picture says “Our Rapid City team gathered more than 6,000 signatures in under a month and half helping to put both Protect our Ballot and Help our Tech School measures on the ballot for people across South Dakota to vote on.”

                Right by her picture there it says they were part of “the team” that gathered more than 6000 signatures for raising taxes for tech schools.

                Case closed. Guilty as charged.

                1. Jordan “highest bidder” Mason….he will work for anyone wh pays him…

                  no principles

                  For Amendment V, For Concealed Carry and for raising tobacco taxes…no ideological compass there

                2. I challenge you to post one of those petitions that has Tonchi’s name as a circulator or one she has signed.

      1. Thank you for sharing this Tara! It reveals Jackie Sly’s true nasty colors as well. So glad Tonchi is a lobbyist and fighting for our students!!

  10. has anyone stopped to think that if parents have trouble with their kids homework, that they maybe werent so hot with their own homework sixteen years ago? we don’t do our kids favors if we jump up to defend them from things they need to contend with.

    1. When kids are told 2+2=5 is correct because the process used to get there is correct, something is wrong. I couldn’t wrap my mind around it so how could we help our children comprehend? Can you explain how this equation is correct?

      1. Well we all know it definitely is not correct, and perpetuating common core standards and curriculum is not only destroying our children’s proper education, but it is also destroying our workforce for the future. How can a bookkeeper, cashier or accountant balance? Knowing proper addition and subtraction as well as multiplication and division is a necessity for running any business. Now we have Math teachers who are telling kids it’s OK to get a feel good answer, even if it is wrong. Math is turned into a ” participation” subject. They work in groups of four students, and all four students have to agree on one answer. It is ridiculous.

      1. just giving a quick assessment of the common core critics whom I have had personal contact with.

  11. Come on Pat, we all know Common Core is just another way to activate the nanobots in vaccines. Just another way to make us all more susceptible to government control when our children sleep on their backs.

    1. WRONG!
      Furthermore, nothing is easy or sensible when you spend 10 minutes trying to multiply two numbers using common core, when it can be done in 10 seconds with the old curriculum!

  13. Jon, that is hilarious. I think common core also causes babies to roll over on mom’s tin hat. Crazy is just crazy. Stupid is just stupid. But, sometimes crazy and stupid gives us a chuckle.

    Enquirer, correct as well.

    2. Can you explain how to justify 2+2=5? I surely can’t, but I know that’s because I’m stupid, right?

      Why you got to name-call? Because you don’t like someone? Leave them alone if you don’t, share with your family and friends if need be. Why do you do this to people? I just don’t get it. They way you talk about being a Christian and following God’s word, it’s contradicting when you call names only because someone believes something you don’t. You call Lora crazy, if she really is, is it appropriate to make fun of her? Do you also make fun of and chuckle at mentally challenged individuals?

      You’re better than this, Troy.

    4. thanks mr jones, i only had the mcgraw hill reader and a slide rule growing up, but i try.

  14. Besides from the paranoia corner of Glenn Beck, show me where in our state standards or curriculum that 2+2=5. It doesn’t exist. You have been duped.

  15. 2 + 2 = 5 isn’t Common Core. It’s a number trick that’s been around for hundreds of years. It’s only used by CC detractors to confuse people.
    Just Google it if you want it explained.

    1. I don’t Google, they track you. I DuckDuckGo it and that’s not my experience with being taught how to implement CC in the classroom. We can go with your number trick theory, but I know what I know and you know what you know. I think the focus is on the process. Even if a student comes up with a wrong answer, they need to be encouraged and told that the process they took is right and will eventually get them to the truth… 2+2=4.

      We know the disadvantages to CC and trusting in the public school system. We did our research and decided to change our kids’ future and school experience. That’s really all that matters to our family and you must know my kid is not the only one in their classroom, many other parents support school choice and freedom for students to learn they way that’s best for them, not dictated by the govt.

      It sucks what has happened to our education system, but good luck taking on the Teachers Union:) So, we do what we think is right for us as I’m sure you do the same for your family.

  16. Tara, enough with the posting of videos as a comment by themselves. That’s not commenting. That’s spamming.

    If you have a point related to the video you’re posting, then make it.

    2. Master? Jeez, who does Pat think he is, Tara? He acts like this is his website and makes the rules. The nerve!

  18. KM,

    When someone says and believes a math curriculum is related to a most serious problem as teen suicide, one is crazy.

    When one believes a paranoid who says our curriculum teaches 2+2=5, one is stupid.

    To sugarcoat stupid and crazy is dishonest and enables delusion.

  19. Hi “I’m Lora Hubbel, I am totally ineffective, vote for me”

    Who campaigns on bills they CAN NOT pass???

  20. Tara- free speech is a right you don’t always have to exercise or abuse so blatantly.

    A great piece of wisdom once given: It’s better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and proved one.

        1. Go take a left turn………eftinsd.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-sdea-and-common-core.html

  21. Informed … Students learn the same things we all learned. (e.g. You borrow from the next column to the left to subtract.) Common Core is additional practice with numbers and teaches a learning and visual perception method that very useful when applied to situations besides math, later in life.

  23. Informed,

    I think i have found your problem. New or old, very few need 10 seconds to multiply two numbers.

    1. Thank you for pointing that out. Of course most of us can multiply single digits in our heads in a half a second. The problem I have witnessed is 10 year-olds and older can’t multiply 26 X 37, unless they’re learning it at home. They are definitely NOT learning it in the schools! I have sat in on many classes and seen the frustration of trying to learn this insane method with these kids. I talked to a senior the other day and asked her if she would be willing to do a math problem for me, using 26 X 37 again. I stacked the two numbers for her and asked her to figure it when she said she would. She looked at it….and looked at it. Her mother seemed embarrassed and piped up and said “you can do that!” The daughter looked at her mom and said “no I can’t Mom.” I showed her how she needed to figure it. She said “wow that’s cool!” I asked the mother if she would be willing to come to the school board meeting with me so she can express her concern about her 18-year-old senior not knowing how to multiply these numbers. Shockingly, the mother said she couldn’t, because she was a teacher. How sad is that? I certainly hope that that mom went home and started working with her daughter to try to catch her up in math! I know it was a rude awakening for her to discover her daughter could not do a simple math problem as a senior. Furthermore, any of you defending common core math need to understand for the last three years the school of mines has come to taxpayers to teach 4.0 “math” students remedial math! According to the statistics at STSMT, after three tries in remedial math, still only 67% can pass it. That is it! This has caused taxpayers $250,000 a year! Finally this last year, the legislature said no more. After all, we had six colleges each asking for $250,000 per school to teach Remedial math. This is a fact and you can Google it and read it in the Rapid City Journal.

      1. Ha, that’s funny. But, if you actually had your facts straight, you’d know that SD Mines does not offer remedial math. Well…unless you are considering Calc I to be remedial….which based on your prior arguments, I really wouldn’t rule out. Ahhhh, without data my dear friends, you are just a person with an opinion.

  25. Tara,

    I have yet to hear a remotely non-crazy and grossly inaccurate argument against it. This linkage to suicide is worse than crazy because it distracts from rational discussion about suicide.

  27. Based solely off her posting on this blog I’ve come to the following co clusion- That it’s a great thing Tara isn’t subbing anymore- her not subbing is Making Education Great Again!

  28. LOL, yes critical thinking and the 1st amendment are not politically correct. I am against dumbing down children.

  29. “Informed,”

    Interesting anecdotes especially the one about School of Mines. Funny thing, Common Core has only been in affect for a couple of years. The problem you descibe arose under the old standards.

  30. And the parent/teacher you describe learned math under the old curriculum. She sounds incompetent as a teacher.*. And the “senior” should have learned what you described in elementary school, long before common core.

    *As a mother, her little “you can do it” pep talk sounds like what a mommy who raised a snowflake would say.

  31. “Instead of many arithmetic problems, the homework would contain only three or four questions, and two of those would be ‘explain your answer,’” Heather told me. “Like, ‘One bridge is 412 feet long and the other bridge is 206 feet long. Which bridge is longer? How do you know?’” She found she could not help her daughter answer the latter question: The “right” answer involved heavy quotation from Common Core language. A program designed to encourage thought had ended up encouraging rote memorization not of math but of scripts about math.

    The Common Core math standards deemphasize performing procedures (solving many similar problems) in favor of attempting to push a deeper cognitive understanding — e.g., asking questions like “How do you know?”

    Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/347973/two-moms-vs-common-core-maggie-gallagher3/two-moms-vs-common-core-maggie-gallagher

    Research is key to backing up claims. More links needed? Sometimes I don’t mind doing research for those who seem to be too lazy to do it for themselves.

  32. Lora is not crazy. I vividly recall several years ago State Rep. Bill Van Gerpen, who is also an ordained pastor, testifying against an education department bill on one of their new-fangled ideas, that these changes and the difficulties and stress they placed on some young students were actually contributing to suicides in his district.

  33. Math, in the future, will encourage rote memorization of scripts just as one needs to memorize theorems and postulates to learn geometry. A deeper cognitive understanding such as “How do you know?” is quite proper, since every person will have a phone in their pocket capable of performing highly complicated math procedures as well as long division and complex multiplication, in a hundredth of a second. Understanding why (using number lines) is more valuable than figuring out problems. Siri can do that with ease.

    1. You are condemning a curriculum choice, not standards. The two are very different. None of these comments are actually targeting standards, rather they are targeting specific curriculum that is being required to be taught.

  34. KM,

    Thank you for that. At least it isn’t the fake news common core teaches 2+2=5. However, I hit your link and it says it isn’t available. I’m sure you just mis-inputted the URL.

    That said, mathematics has many different components (most of which are progressive where you have to know the predecessor components to move on to subsequent components). Basic arithmetic includes simple addition/subtraction and multiplication/division which preceed algebra, trig, geometry which precede calculus, etc.

    However, despite the general progressive nature of the components, some must be learned concurrent with other components. Spatial computations (e.g. area of a triangle) and spatial understanding (e.g. your bridge example) can be introduced while learning basic math but in many ways aren’t utilized until more advanced math (algebra/calculus).

    STEM teachers have found spatial understanding has decreased the past few decades (prior to common core) because children’s lives have changed. They no longer pace off football fields or kickball fields or ride their bikes to their activities. Video games are one and two dimensional experiences and not 3 dimensional.

    In the past if you took a kid across town, whether walking or riding his bike, you could tell him to be home in three hours and he’d quickly be able to assess if he could make it in time and maybe have time to play in the creek he’d pass on the way. Now, a kid would look at you with no idea how to assess the situation.

    Thus, children don’t intuitively understand space, time, distance and how they relate requiring it to actually be taught. This ability to make cross-functional computations with multiple iterations and variables was once a given. It is not today and thus must be addressed (or allow a continued deterioration of math skills). Your bridge example is an example of addressing this growing deficiency in the skill set of our children.

  35. P.S. Heather’s inabilities as an ADULT who is unable to explain how she knows a 412 foot bridge is longer than one 206 feet is exactly the problem. A person who can only do simple math (addition/subtraction and multiplication/division) is basically significantly disabled in today’s work world.

    To use some one functionally disabled from being educated under the prior curriculum is not a good example for staying with the prior curriculum.

    By the way, just so you know, my assessment of the math standards isn’t from assessments I read from someone else. I’ve read every standard for every year and assessed it by reading actual curriculum, talking with math teachers (elementary through college), and my own experiences learning math (which goes to advanced collegiate levels).

    Do I think common core standards perfect? No. But, I will not let the pursuit of perfection condemn current students to the the grossly inadequate curriculum permitted under the prior standards. Common Core standards are significantly superior. If you’d like to sit down and delve into a specific standard or grade level, let me know (Pat has my contact information).

    1. Debating whether or not Common Core Standards are better or worse detracts from the real issue of how standards are used to implement mass indoctrination of the masses. That explains how the establishments of both political parties are controlled by liberal ideology. That is what is driving conservatives crazy. And forcing age inappropriate “skills” down the kids throats perhaps is not causing suicides, but possibly is one of the contributing factors.

  36. Steve,

    On this I agree is worthy of discussion and to large degree we are in agreement.

    When anti-Common Core people say untrue things like it teaches 2+2=5, we get distracted from the real issue. And, it lumps legitimate criticisms of Common Core with the untrue things I just mentioned. There are things I want improved but it is really hard when one spends time refuting urban legends about Common Core. The absolute most nonsensical argument is when a parent educated under the old standards can’t help their elementary-age child with homework. I’m sorry but I’m not going to consider such parent’s (a parent educated under prior standards) comments credible because the parent’s lack understanding is painfully obvious.

    Standards are measures which we have and need in all aspects of our life (too much hops in beer can be a disaster). The problem is not the standards but the curriculum which can flow out of them (a problem which pre-exists common core).

    I really have yet to have seen a single math standard which is fundamentally flawed (I think some tweaking of what year certain items are emphasized or taught might be appropriate). If you have a specific item, I’m open to hearing your argument.

    I also can’t imagine how math and math standards or math curriculum can be used for “mass indoctrination.” Math is apolitical by definition. But, if you have specific item, I’m open to hearing your argument.

    That said, I have fundamental problems with especially the science and history standards. The liberal agenda has created standards which I think are wacky (wacky science or wacky history) and not intellectually honest. And, I don’t think these standards stimulate honest curiosity about the subject. For the record, I don’t think it appropriate for the conservative agenda to respond with conservative standards. To the maximum extend possible, standards (measures) are to be neutral.

    Everything we need to know isn’t learned k12 but occurs over a lifetime. Neutral standards will stimulate a curiosity whereby learning is over a lifetime. I think this is the ideal we should be pursuing vs indoctrination of the masses (liberal or conservative).

  37. P.S. Steve, regarding age inappropriate skills contributing to suicides, that is balderdash and you know it. Let’s stay on track. If you have a math skill which is taught too early, what is that skill and why do you think it should be taught later?

    1. Troy that issue is not balderdash, as I agree it is not settled science. Based on my own experience (I know that means antidotal), the ability to problem solve does not reach a highly effective level for most people until well after their 20s. That is because there is a foundation of knowledge that needs to be developed first. So why are we trying to get elementary students to a high level of problem solving? Have you found that in your study of Common Core Standards? And is that causing some students to become frustrated?

  38. My son (a 3rd) grader is amazing at math. He has more tools than I ever had to solve problems including critical thinking.
    As far as the school of mines remedial math argument. It’s not remedial, it’s a primer on “engineering “ math. And it has proved successful. I say, tax dollars well spent.

  39. Steve: “So why are we trying to get elementary students to a high level of problem solving?”

    Because their life experiences today are not giving them problem solving experiences children in prior generations got. It is a deficiency that is a recent development and the deficiency is not rooted in schools but the broader challenges of today’s society.

    Steve: “Have you found that in your study of Common Core Standards? And is that causing some students to become frustrated?”

    We have serious problems in our society and I’m sure you and I agree on that. Responding to a lack of skills in 2nd grade is not to dumb down standards to let parent and child be deluded they are doing well as it will ultimately lead to greater frustration later in life when the snowflakes have to be in teh real world. In fact, it is dumbing down standards which is not only a poor response to our societal problems it is a response which makes the problem worse.

    2. “life experiences today are not giving them problem solving experiences children in prior generations got”

      Troy, where did you get that conclusion and if true, what is the root cause? If Lora said that, then wouldn’t it be simply classified as “crazy”?

      1. I described it above with regarded conversations with three educators. It is a consequence of children spending less time outside, more time in programmed leisure (organized sports or video games) and less time unsupervised.

        1. Troy, that makes sense. The solution should not be spending more time and money on Common Core, but spending less time and money on organized sports.

  40. Steve: “The solution should not be spending more time and money on Common Core”

    I think standards (measures/expectations) are important in all facets of life. Otherwise, life becomes just participation trophies and everything is relative. If you have particular suggestions on Common Core, I’ll debate them. I will not support a system without standards/measures/expectations.

    Steve: “spending less time and money on organized sports.” I agree. I’ve been to more of my 4th grader’s athletic games than my mother attended of in my entire life. That said, the problem is broader than that but goes to parents making better parenting decisions 24/7.

  41. “informed” AKA Jodie B. And the “citizens for anarchy” – will be against anything that causes them to actually have a coherent thought about PROGRESS. They stand on their porch and yell get off my lawn, at anything that might move us forward. “If it worked for us when we were in school, by God it will work today!”

  42. I’ve presented 3 credible sources for problems CC has created for our kids and teachers. CRTV’s Michelle Malkin, National Review and Glenn Beck’s book, “Conform”. Ted Cruz is another who disagrees with CC, I’ve heard him speak about the issues on TheBlaze. If parents and grandparents aren’t willing to do their own investigative research, that’s on them.

    Let me give you an example. CNN 10 is shown in classrooms. Public school teachers shut the TV off when it’s over. At my kid’s school, the teacher follows up with questions and conversation about the topics presented and if students noticed any bias.

    This isn’t a big issue for our family anymore, we took measures into our own hands; school choice. The Teacher’s Union is not going to let anyone or any organization challenge them, there’s too much money involved. And, when state and local govts are incentivized ($$) to implement CC, there’s probably not going to be much push back.

  43. KM,

    You presented two sources (Malkin & National Review) whose primary criticism revolves around criticism of curriculum selected. The two mothers who are too poorly educated to help their elementary children are just too incompetent to be considered credible yet they keep getting referred to in a round-robin of group think in the anti-cc crowd.

    Please show me a single specific criticism of a particular math standard by Malkin or anyone at National Review. Just one would be nice.

    Glenn Beck’s hysterics and paranoia is off-putting to me and drowns out any particular point which might be credible.

    Personally, I find the Fordham Institute’s support of CC a much higher intellectual and reasoned discussion. Even so, I don’t rely on Fordham. I did my own research. Parrotting Malkin or anyone else isn’t real research. It is parroting.

    1. Troy, so parents should not be the ones to set the standards? If the standard is the 5 pillars of Islam, Christian parents are too incompetent to be critical of the standard? The federal government sets the standards:

      “Asked about the roots of the “Access Islam” program in America, Mawyer says CAN has been able to determine the curriculum was originally started by President George W. Bush in 2005.

      “But at that time, it was a program that simply taught students about the traditions, culture, and holidays of Islam,” he explains. “Then, it became greatly expanded under the Obama administration. It has continued to develop, and now has had a greater, broader outreach.”

      http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/03/31/u-s-education-department-asked-to-eliminate-lesson-plans-on-islam/

  44. If I remember correctly Tonchi and her two minions were wearing bright red t-shirts with “Communist Core” printed on them while lobbying the legislature on common core. Really hard to take them seriously.

  45. Can this whole thread be deleted? It’s actually painful to read; let alone comprehend. The audacity of these people to use suicide as a variable for “correlation” to Common Core is disgusting. Have you ever worked in mental health? Have you ever set across from a person who is severely suicidal? How about the family who is dealing with that tragedy every day? I must say, in the THOUSANDS of peer-reviewed scholarly journal articles I’ve read and the numerous experts I’ve trained with, the variable of Common Core has NEVER shown up. Hell, it hasn’t even been used to explain any variance. This is legitimately the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in some time. And, for any one of you that plans on arguing or sending a bunch of links, check your sources. If it isn’t referred, published by a scholarly journal, and cited beyond facebook pages, “group” webpages, or on blogs, it isn’t research. Repeat: It is NOT research. Thus, it is indefensible. End of story.

  46. Commonsense, this was one of Pat’s better threads. I see new people commenting everyday. Nice to finally have other viewpoints. Name calling gets old after a while. Well at least you know where one of the candidates stand on common core and immigration.

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