Measure to reduce the number of vaccinated people in the state introduced. I don’t think that’s a good idea.

House Bill 1235 has been introduced, and seems to be grabbing a lot of headlines. What the bill does in part is to revise the mandatory vaccination law and state:

No child entering public or nonpublic school, or a public or nonpublic early childhood program in this state, may be required to receive any immunization or medical procedure for enrollment or entry. The Department of Health may recommend any immunization for school entry but may not require them. No school may use any coercive means to require immunization.

Read that here.

Let me preface this by noting that the sponsors of the measure are good people, but reducing the number of people who are vaccinated against serious preventable disease runs the risk of causing health catastrophes that don’t need to be.   Were my mother – a school nurse for many years in Pierre – still alive, I’m sure she’d have some choice words about it.

Suffice it to say, I don’t think it’s a good idea.

Let me point to the CDC – the Center for Disease Control – and the statistics for Measles for the last decade:

Of 1282 cases last year in 2019, 128 were hospitalized and 61 reported having complications, including pneumonia and encephalitis. That’s 10% of cases required hospitalization, and 5% had serious complications. That’s with modern medicine, clean water, proper sanitation, etc.

According to the CDC – the majority of people who came down with measles were unvaccinated.

Read more here.

1282 preventable illnesses. 128 people getting so sick they had to be hospitalized and 61 seriously ill.  Pneumonia isn’t anything to mess with – I just had a daughter in the hospital for 5 days with her pneumonia having arisen from a chest cold. Pneumonia kills people.  Killed Jim Henson of the Muppets. Helped kill Glen Frey of the Eagles.  People die from Pneumonia every day.  Encephalitis is far, far scarier.

And that’s JUST what can arise from Measles. It doesn’t address the highly contagious whooping cough, mumps, or the really scary diseases such as polio.

Roald Dahl, the author of James & the Giant Peach, and Charlie & the Chocolate family lost his daughter to measles in the 1950’s. In 1988, he wrote an essay about why vaccinations are necessary, in part:

Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything.

“Are you feeling all right?” I asked her.

“I feel all sleepy,” she said.

In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.


Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunised, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year. Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another. At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections. About 20 will die.


Every year around 20 children will die in Britain from measles.

So what about the risks that your children will run from being immunised?

They are almost non-existent. Listen to this. In a district of around 300,000 people, there will be only one child every 250 years who will develop serious side effects from measles immunisation! That is about a million to one chance. I should think there would be more chance of your child choking to death on a chocolate bar than of becoming seriously ill from a measles immunisation.

So what on earth are you worrying about? It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunised.

Read that here.

There’s a reason that the public health law requiring immunization for school children has been on the law books for close to 50 years.  We’re fortunate enough that we have not experienced public health emergencies since the time of our parents or grandparents – and that is in large part because of childhood immunizations.   The downside of the law being in effect 50 years that is that we’ve gotten old enough that a lot of people have forgotten.

Maybe the best thing to offer is the quote that “those who forget History are doomed to repeat it.”

Because that will certainly be so.

107 thoughts on “Measure to reduce the number of vaccinated people in the state introduced. I don’t think that’s a good idea.”

  1. Polio was “cured” with a vaccine, but more important than the vaccine was hygiene and understanding how it was transmitted (pools).

    I read a study (it’s in my filing cabinet and would take some time to locate) suggesting that the eradication of disease has always come on the heels of hygiene and a natural process (some people more immune to disease survive and reproduce – harsh, but true).

    Looking at the infection rates, the study indicated that the vaccines come after the selective and hygiene improvement processes have already occurred, after disease vectors identified (rats, pools, sewage processing, etc). Therefore, vaccines take false credit for the eradication and likely could not have prevented the outbreaks.

    Here are some philosophical decision points to consider with respect to this very difficult issue:

    1 – The CDC has a conflict of interest in vaccine recommendations since their funding comes from the study of said vaccines, directly and indirectly
    2 – Weaponized vaccines are a dangerous unverifiable (for the general public, there is no ability to verify the contents of vaccines) vector through which the entire public could be attacked
    3 – MRSA and other bacterial infections are fostered by the pharma industry’s over-use of various remedies (pattern of behavior/outcomes)
    4 – With so much money involved, intentional spread of something like Measles is in the financial best interests of vaccine advocates (investors, laboratory workers, researchers, military industrial complex, and facility masons)
    5 – As a population, we become stronger and more resilient to future pathogens when subjected to disease and surviving
    6 – Flu vaccines don’t work – the virus mutates, but people still take the vaccines, some get the flu anyway, many still die, and the vaccine manufacturers still get paid
    7 – If vaccines work, why would we ever consider forcing them on people? Why would they not just be adopted in the normal course of a free market operating efficiently?
    8 – More effective than vaccines, a more sensible dietary regime may have a more pronounced positive effect on disease outcomes, as would the obviation of rampant sexual promiscuity and poor hygiene.
    9 – We have not quantified the negative effects of vaccines, but Autism Spectrum Disorder and heavy metal exposure are two well known risks that have not been addressed by the vaccine industrial complex.

    Maybe we could take away vaccine maker indemnity before we even consider forced inoculations. Furthermore, is there any more clear violation of liberty than the forced insertion of a sharp metal object beneath a person’s skin?

    1. John stop right there. Autism has utterly and completely been proven to not be caused by vaccines, so please don’t spread that kind of crazy talk. As a parent of a child with Autism, I can confirm that any link between it and vaccines is bunk.

      That misguided view came about because Autism symptoms and developmental delays that have always been there tend to be noticed by parents about the same time they’re going in for shots in the first couple of years. My daughter had speech development issues that presented before she had her shots, and were still there after. Nothing changed, and later came a diagnosis.

      It didn’t help that a person faking a study made the claim, which was utterly repudiated, and has been proven false over and over and over.

      Right now, research is pointing to an abnormality in cells that produce a substance called myelin (which insulates nerves) which offers a possibility of future treatment.

      1. “Autism has utterly and completely been proven to not be caused by vaccines”

        Scientific proof has not been established and there is not a consensus.

        It’s not the vaccine, per se. It’s the heavy metals in the vaccine.

        The contention in vaccine science is cause for concern.

        What is your working hypothesis as to why Autism is on-the-rise to precipitously?

        In addition, for what it’s worth, the Autism link was not central to my argument and I would caution against latching-onto only that aspect of the analysis to the detriment of downplaying the other concerning aspects of vaccine science.

        A lot of people argue against the person when it comes to Mike Adams. I tend to think that’s because he’s so cogent, passionate, and effective. I don’t agree with everything he publishes, but I do admire the fact that he’s pushing back and encouraging everyone to read the inserts (not just the information sheets) that come with vaccines.

        1. Mike Adams is not a serious source for anything.

          Autism has been on the rise mainly because of better diagnoses, and having been classified as different maladies, but put under Autism Spectrum Disorder now.

          1. For those of you who do not know about Mike Adams:

            “Mike Adams, the “Health Ranger,” is an outspoken consumer health advocate, award-winning investigative journalist, internet activist and science lab director. Adams was born in 1967 in Lawrence, Kansas. He holds a Bachelor of Science degree. In college entrance exams and graduate school entrance exams, Adams scored in the 99.9th percentile across all U.S. students. He aced the English, Mathematics and Science sections of college entrance exams, scoring 100% on 3 out of 4 sections earning numerous offers of scholarships from various universities, including the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (which he chose not to attend). Adams has no criminal record and has never been arrested. He avoids alcohol, smoking, coffee and all recreational drugs. Mike Adams has personally authored over 2,000 articles, including investigative articles, satire and op-ed. His writings have been collectively read by over 100 million people over the past decade.”


            1. And they also say:

              Michael Allen “Mike” Adams a.k.a. The Health Ranger (born 1969 or 1967 in Lawrence, KS) is publisher of Natural News (formerly News Target) which promotes alternative health and natural lifestyle products online. Adams also owns and operates dozens of other sites, including WakingScience and TruthWiki, and ‘shadow’ sites that he creates to target enemies. It’s estimated that the various sites get 6.5 million hits per month, with 31% coming through organic search.

              Adams is an ardent anti-technology, conspiracy theory promoting pro-organic advocate who claims biotechnology scientists “are the most despicable humanoids to walk the face of this planet” and that they promote corporate “junk science” and are anti-human.[1] He has promoted such causes as AIDS denialism, 9/11 truther conspiracies, Barack Obama citizenship ‘birther’ claims and believes that chemtrails and vaccines are serious health threats.


              Adams’ website has been characterized by Brian Dunning, who runs the science-based Skeptoid, as the #1 “worst anti-science website”. Physician blogger Steven Novella, a clinical neurologist and assistant professor at Yale University School of Medicine, characterized Adams as “a dangerous conspiracy-mongering crank.” Oncologist David Gorski (aka Orac) called Natural News as “the wretchedest, scummiest, and quackiest” website on the Internet. Alan Levinovitz, a James Madison University professor writing for Slate, wrote: “NaturalNews is … a cesspool of pseudo-scientific insanity seasoned generously with political vitriol and outlandish conspiracy theories.” According to RationalWiki, “even other quack sites thinks [NaturalNews] is a quack site”


              I might also note that Lora Hubbel quotes his website often. Should tell you a lot.

              1. Pat – Autism aside do you disagree with the other points John mentions above? I too and concerned about any “authoritative” body telling me I am required to get a vaccine. This goes against the spirit this country was founded on. Please rebut the others or are you only rebutting the Autism portion, thank you

                1. The law says parents are to protect their children, and that means dressing them properly for the weather, monitoring them for disease, making sure they receive medical attention appropriately, using car seats, making sure they don’t play in traffic, never leaving them home alone, and getting them vaccinated, among other duties.

                  An unvaccinated child is an endangered child.

                  1. “An unvaccinated child is an endangered child.”

                    This is a dangerous viewpoint.

                    If vaccines work, the market will accept them.

                    As long as there is no opportunity for torte against vaccine makers, the market will be fundamentally broken.

                    Vaccinations and the propaganda pushed to sell them appear to to nothing more than a profit play.

                    Until you can show reasonable evidence to the contrary ..

  2. Nick Gauther was severely injured by the TDap vaccine. Girls around the world were paralyzed after receiving Gardasil, not going to hear about them on MSM. On and on we could go about people having severe reactions to a vaccine. Are we allowed to speak about them? Are we allowed to ask about the ingredients in vaccines? How about asking for more trials to be conducted?

    My body, my choice… right?

  3. Two comments:

    1). We have a world health crisis because it is estimated 3% of those infected with the corona virus will die or suffer severe consequences. The above measles example is 3x worse than the coronavirus. This anit-vaxx movement could theoretically be worse than a world pandemic if we do not proceed with caution and good science.

    2). There are side effects for some who take vaccines. There isn’t a drug we take without risk of side effects. What we have to know is what risks are real and significant and work, with scientific reason, to mitigate those risks if possible. If some risks can’t be mitigated, we may have to live with the side effects.

    I am for maximum liberty in context of the reality we live in a society (not all on our own island) so I want to give as much as possible to both sides.

    1). If one is willing to bear the risk of side effects from a vaccine, you have taken a risk to make you much less likely to get the illness or spread it to others. Thus, you are not at risk to intermingle in public and you are not at risk to spread illness to others. Enter _______.

    2). If one is unwilling to bear the risk of side effects from a vaccine, I respect your decision. However, you are at risk to get the illness and spread the illness by intermingling in public. Thus, you have made a choice which has the consequences you are not allowed to enter __________ for your safety and the safety of others.

    1. Troy I respect your comments but, if I choose not to vaccinate are you telling me I can’t go to the store, gym, park, etc? I sure would hope not as you are infringing on my liberty. If we go down this road, where do we stop. This country is constantly curtailing our freedoms left and right and no one should tell me what I can or cannot do with my body. Will we one day be FORCED to take a mark on our hand or forehead in order to buy or sell anything. Be careful where you go it can lead to more oppression.

      If vaccines work and I choose not to get them, you should be good right?? Here is something I find interesting, I am 44 and the immunization schedule when I was school age were something like 6-8 vaccinations, thats it. Kids now are getting 30-40 vaccinations and very young ages. I find it hard not to at least question the need for all this and that it may not be harmful to pump all that crap into a young child. My generation has not had ALL these vaccinations that children have now. Big Pharma is real and it’s a real threat. While they have done good I fear they are only out for profit and my generation and the generation before it did not have all these “health problems” Vaccines are full of heavy metals, toxins, and at times aborted fetal cells. I feel pretty good these items belong nowhere in the human body.

        1. People are so brainwashed. Why are so many people freaked out if I don’t get vaccinated and you do. If they work the person vaccinated should have NO issues, right? I am struggling to understand why people are so against MY right to choose not to vaccinate, why do you care?

          1. Because vaccines can wear off, especially with people who have compromised immunity as a result of cancer etc. You might not think you’re not affecting anyone, when you could be killing several others.

            There is such a thing as being responsible towards your fellow man. People aren’t allowed to just drive drunk and slam into school buses nor was typhoid mary allowed to infect and kill people once it was discovered she was carrying typhoid fever.

            1. “once it was discovered”

              Precisely. Vaccine truth is still up-for-debate despite the fact that the debate is being skewed by the confirmation bias of big pharma investors.

              Still nobody countering that the effectiveness of hygiene and diet obviate the argument to vaccinate.

              As a conservative, I believe vaccines have a lot to prove before we start violating the liberties of people and viciously violating their bodies with sharp foreign objects.

            2. I received the high dose flu vaccine on October 23rd and was diagnosed with Influenza A on February 4th. I am now in self-imposed quarantine for a week.
              If I had not been vaccinated I am sure I would be much sicker. I had Swine flu in 1976 and it was excruciatingly painful. I vowed I would never go through that again and have had flu shots every year since.
              The vaccines are not always effective and only herd immunity will prevent a pandemic.

              1. “If I had not been vaccinated I am sure I would be much sicker”

                How could this possibly be known?

                What’s that you say?

                You got a flu vaccine?

                AND STILL GOT THE FLU!?

                1. John Dale I know I would be a lot sicker without the vaccine because I had Influenza in 1976 and I know what it’s like. Also, I am 70 years old and have asthma and was hospitalized in December with a different virus. Influenza could easily kill me.

                  I also had measles in 1962 and I know what that was like. I spent two weeks quarantined in my grandparents’ home with a private duty nurse to attend me. We have a whole generation who has no idea what measles is like, have no idea of the resources they will need, (like wealthy grandparents with a big house and live-in help,) if one of their children gets the measles. How many parents can take weeks off from work to care for a sick child?
                  They have no idea how bad these diseases are.

  4. “A U.S. study found that children who received vaccines containing a preservative called thimerosal, which is almost 50 percent mercury, were more than twice as likely to develop autism than children who did not. Although mercury has been removed from regular childhood vaccines due to growing safety worries, it is still present in other vaccines children might get.” — from the link above

      1. “many products have been reformulated without thimerosal”

        A list of problematical vaccine ingredients and their effects:

        – Bovine cow serum: Extracted from cow skin. When injected causes connective tissue disorders, arthritis and lupus; also shortness of breath, low blood pressure, chest pain and skin reactions.

        – Sorbitol: Synthetic sweetener which metabolizes very slowly and aggravates IBS and gastrointestinal issues.

        – Gelatin: Derived from the collagen inside animals’ skin and bones. Injecting gelatin poses the risk of infection from synthetic growth hormones and BSE infectivity (mad cow disease).

        – Sodium chloride: Raises blood pressure and inhibits muscle contraction and growth.

        – Egg protein: Vaccines are prepared in eggs (certainly not organic). May contain growth hormones, antibiotics, and salmonella bacteria.

        – Thimerosal: A neurotoxic mercury which causes autism: There are 25 mcg in one average flu vaccine, and the EPA safety limit is 5 micrograms, so children who are vaccinated simultaneously with multiple* vaccines receive over 10 times the safety limit of mercury in one day.

        – Human albumin: The protein portion of blood from pooled human venous plasma; when injected causes fever, chills, hives, rash, headache, nausea, breathing difficulty, and rapid heart rate. Injecting “pooled blood” can result in a loss of body cell mass and cause immunodeficiency virus infection, or contain SV40, AIDS, cancer or Hepatitis B from drug addicts.

        – Formaldehyde: Highly carcinogenic fluid used to embalm corpses. Ranked one of the most hazardous compounds to human health; can cause liver damage, gastrointestinal issues, reproductive deformation, respiratory distress and cancer. Plus, formaldehyde has been known to fail to deactivate the virus the vaccine is intended to cure, thus enabling a live virus to enter your blood and infect your system.

        – Phenoxyethanol: A glycol ether/chemical; highly toxic to the nervous system, kidneys, and liver. The FDA warns “can cause shut down of the central nervous system (CNS), vomiting and contact dermatitis” in cosmetics; imagine when injected into your blood.

        – Aluminum phosphate: Greatly increases toxicity of mercury, so caution about minimum mercury tolerance is therefore severely underestimated. CDC scientists and all doctors are well aware of this.

        – MSG (monosodium glutamate): When injected becomes a neurotoxin, causing CNS disorders and brain damage in children.

      2. Troy is on the money with his takes. A lot of you other folks are promoting conspiracy theory anti-vaxx nonsense. Not requiring vaccines is absolute lunacy. There are risks with vaccines, but it’s much more risky than not being vaccinated.

        If you look at a lot of the “sources” for the anti-vaccine promoters, they are a lot of health consultants, natural remedy healers, and sell beauty products. That all sounds nice, but these people have zero formal education on medicines and vaccines. My wife is a doctor and has to have conversations with people every day that are convinced they know more about vaccines than her; they don’t. If you want some scientifically sound material, read Autism’s False Prophets by Paul Offit MD. He goes over the whole history of vaccines and the anti vaxx movement. He’s a legitimate source of information on the subject and not a quack like most of these other sources cited in this thread.

        1. “My wife is a doctor ”

          Doctors make money from vaccines.

          It’s a conflict of interest to stop at your wife’s testimonial.

          “Paul Offit MD”

          Paul’s voice is no more or less credible than many others who think Vaccines are a racket to make the CDC and big pharma loads of money (follow the money).

          1. John Dale I know I would be a lot sicker without the vaccine because I had Influenza in 1976 and I know what it’s like. Also, I am 70 years old and have asthma and was hospitalized in December with a different virus. Influenza could easily kill me.

            I also had measles in 1962 and I know what that was like. I spent two weeks quarantined in my grandparents’ home with a private duty nurse to attend me. We have a whole generation who has no idea what measles is like, have no idea of the resources they will need, (like wealthy grandparents with a big house and live-in help,) if one of their children gets the measles. How many parents can take weeks off from work to care for a sick child?
            They have no idea how bad these diseases are. Maybe this is something each generation will have to experience for themselves, they just aren’t going to believe it until they watch their own children suffer. The parents will lose time at work, They’ll have trouble paying their bills, the kids will miss so much school they will have to repeat a grade, some of them will suffer irreversible brain damage or death, and then maybe they’ll figure it out.

  5. Conspiracy hypothesis time: Why vaccinations? Why now? Why forced?

    1 – October 31 2019 – the Wuhan 5G system goes live with “complete coverage”
    2 – FaceBook suppresses articles about 1 above.
    3 – 5G spectrum can be weaponized to cause “flu like symptoms”, disorientation, and even immediate death
    4 – The US CDC is being kept out of Wuhan while Wuhan is burning bodies at an alarming rate
    5 – China starved/killed 48,000,000 people under Mao (precedent)
    6 – In the midst of an outbreak of real flu, perfect cover is provided to eliminate true dissidents and dispose of the evidence
    7 – Vaccine-like nano-technology can be used to create a bio-marker that is detectible via the manipulation of the 5G spectrum emitters and sensors (mark of the beast)
    8 – A pandemic emergency would provide the impetus to force vaccinations as a carrier of biometric identification
    9 – The vaccine has been identified by scientists in India as “man made” and weaponized. This was confirmed through my own sources yesterday. The Wuhan flu bug is man-made.
    10 – The planet’s capacity is being reached, resources are being consumed, and the “have nots” are slowly encroaching on the “haves”, creating motivation for wide-scale population control

    Humanity has the disposition to enact genocide. With modern technology, it now has the ability to disguise it like never before. Rather than invest in a longer-term solution in keeping with morality and “the good”, are globalist powers that be red-flagging China to attack to the US and create a fog of war to cover-up the culling? Could we be at that moment in history?

    1. Important typo in 9 above. It should read:

      The Coronavirus has been identified by scientists in India as “man made” and weaponized. This was confirmed through my own sources yesterday. The Wuhan flu bug is man-made.

      Pat, if you want to correct the comment and delete this update, that’s fine with me.

      1. James Lyons-Welier, PhD also stated the Coronavirus has been made in a laboratory and potential to be used as a bio-weapon.

  6. Troy – before requiring the unvaccinated to use different drinking fountains, bathrooms, and cafes, should we first vet the ethics of pharma and the efficacy of said vaccines?

    Hygiene, local food, and information might have a better and safer outcome with respect to disease and human suffering than forced vaccinations (your contracts just run an end-around forcing the needle in the arm by denying access to a good life from non-compliance).

    Forcing by economic and social pressure bears little difference morally and ethically than using physical force in my view. In fact, it may be worse since the origins of the accusers (the social engineers) are less likely to be known.

    1. I am ok with all scientific inquiry to measure and mitigate and inform. In the meantime, we will not waive current science and risk a pandemic.

      Get vaccinated for your statistical safety and others or stay home. All choices have consequences.

      1. “All choices have consequences”

        And yet, some consequences are convenient, manufactured, and unsubstantiated, serving to conserve power for an entrenched status quo.

        Occupants of Auschwitz arguably made choices that landed them in that place.

        But not all choices or decisions are equal.

        1. John,

          As of today, the science is vaccinations are net-net a positive for the health of society. I’m comfortable with more studies to both assess risks and mitigate side effects.

          But, until the science shifts, I’m opposing actions which have more downside than upside.

  7. I think many of the points in my original philosophical analysis on this very difficult issue still stand credulity and warrant and closer and careful look into the vaccine issue.

    Mike Adam’s controversial arguments notwithstanding, as evidenced by the information presented in this thread, Vaccine science is far from sorted and clear.

  8. Independent of any person’s opinion of Mike Adams personally, there is a truth to the issue of Vaccines. It is not an exact science. It does not have “absolute proof” of its efficacy, and thousands of people (many children) have been hurt by their use throughout history.

    Conflict of interest of the vaccine industrial complex is perhaps the most important issue.

    Who here denies the relationship between diet and health outcomes?

  9. I have a grandson who is high functioning autistic. He had early intervention which has made the difference. I do not think the increase in autism is due in large part to better diagnosis. I dont recall ever in my growing up years ever meeting a person with autism like characteristics. There have to be other reasons, and I have to believe they are environmental. Whether vaccines are part of the problem I cant say, but I have questions about the number of vaccines administered to a baby.

    1. Toby Rodgers, Ph D, MMP, a political economist, started looking into the costs of autism and found that there are environmental connections. There’s a great interview Del Bigtree, former producer of “The Doctors” show, had with Toby. It’s worth checking out. He researched for four years and presents information about five autism triggers. He also explains that within six years autism needs will cost the United States more than the defense budget because there’s no plan at the state of federal level to manage autistic adults.

  10. “Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, Mandrake? Children’s ice cream!…You know when fluoridation began?…1946. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It’s incredibly obvious, isn’t it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That’s the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love… Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I — I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women, er, women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake…but I do deny them my essence.” — General Jack D. Ripper, United States Air Force, Burpelson Air Force Base.

  11. Really?
    Yes. For instance, if I have a business which caters to the elderly, to protect my customers and give them assurance their interests are considered, I am able to restrict your entrance to my business if you aren’t vaccinated. Your right to enter my property is not absolute. I’m only making you live with the consequences of a choice you made with your liberty.

    To be clear, I gave the above example as an illustrative. If it is my business, I can have that policy for any reason I want so long as I’m not discriminating against a protected class. And since my parents are elderly, if non-vaccinations become prevalent, I will hang a sign anti-vaxxers are not welcome in my business. Go somewhere else.

    Regarding going to some outdoor venues like a park, as it is required to disclose you have AIDS before having sex, I think it reasonable the non-vaccinated either stay in a restricted space or identify the risk they are to those around them.

    Finally, regarding the question about “If I’m vaccinated, why do I care?”, not all vaccinations are 100% efficasious and my susceptibility to be infected is unknown to me. As an anti-vaxxer, you’ve made a decision to be a risk to others and should be obligated to disclose your decision.

    OK, not finally. I have 8 grandchildren in schools. If you choose to not vaccinate your children and are willing to risk them by intermingling your children without notice of your risky choice (and thus risking my grandchildren’s well-being), there is not a legal remedy I won’t pursue to its fullest.

  12. Troy
    Your logic is flawed. In order to “enforce” your ban in a store, park, or tell people they can’t go somewhere you going to need to “brand” people in some way. That’s not going to happen and if we get to that point in this country we are going to have a civil war. I believe the Nazis tried something similar, hmmm. The only way to enforce these things is at the end of a gun. You folks all fail to acknowledge a couple of facts

    1- Forcing someone to into a medical procedure against their will is anti-American and anti-liberty. If they don’t comply you are going to take away their rights, honestly I say F@ck you, try it, that’s wrong.
    2- The science is not settled on Vaccines and injuries and deaths occur each year in the thousands.
    3- Many religions forbid vaccinating, are you going to violate their rights. The Amish are some of the most healthy people and they do NOT allow their children to be vaccinated, hmmm, interesting
    4 – Even the CDC has admitted more testing on vaccines and potential risks of them need to be studied more, this is NOT settled science
    5 – There is a huge incentive in Big Pham to make a profit by any means necessary.

    As far as your private property, yeah you can restrict people all you want but, if you own a public business you will be challenged in court and likely lose. So unless there is some branding or enforcement of a gun your not going to stop it. I tell ya what, if you are so gung hoe, I want you to stop the next Amish person you see walking into your establishment and tell them to get out as they are NOT vaccinated, see how that goes.

    1. Many in the Jewish community do not vaccinate either. Would telling them they are not welcome in his establishment be discriminating against a protected class?

      1. I dunno, the Israeli department of health is aggressively cracking down on anti-vax doctors in its own country, so maybe we could reach out and ask them about your not-so-subtle attempt to connect pro-vaccination with anti-semitism.

    2. Really,

      Since you assert made-up science stuff, logically I can conclude you also make up legal stuff. However, since you assert legal stuff as true which is false*, I don’t have use to use logic (BTW, logic a reasoning process). I can just point out you are factually in error.

      Just so you know, I’m not articulating a reasoning process. What I am doing is articulating a position: My private property rights allow me to regulate who comes on my property by my own criteria. It doesn’t even have to be reasonable. All I have to do is prove i’m not doing it to discriminate against a protected class.

      * Just as we are quarantining people now, the courts have affirmed many times the State has the right to require vaccinations so long as it is not arbitrary or capricious but serves a public health objective. My position is any vaccination which can scientifically not contribute sufficiently to public health relative to cost, efficacy, and side effect risk should not be handed.

      Thus, in the end, if you don’t like a mandated vaccination, it is entirely within your right (and I defend this right) to petition the court to litigate the matter. If you prove a vaccine doesn’t serve a public health objective or is arbitrary and capricious, the law will be made null and vaccination no longer required.

      It is also your right to petition the court to be granted access to my property. I’ll see you at the courthouse.

  13. For the pro-vax folks, watch this 4 min news video where the CDC admits a link between autism and MMR vaccine. A quick google search can discover all kinds of items showing vaccines can do real damage.

  14. Half the electorate under age 30 think socialism is a good thing and we have Republicans promoting fringe conspiracy theories. Talk about playing into the hands of the radical leftists that have, quite successfully, brainwashed a generation.

    1. If you think forcing people to get vaccinated AGAINST their will is sane then I would say your the brainwashed one. No one should be forced to do anything in this country, that is the Left’s tactic It does not matter if you believe in them or not, you have a right to your opinion and we should not force medical procedures on people. The people on here arguing we should need to think about what is next to be forced on you. The last administration FORCED you to buy medical insurance or suffer the consequences all in the name of Health. Come on people, think about it.

      1. Nobody should be forced to do anything….

        No parent should be forced to care for their child.
        No driver should be forced to drive on one side of the road.

        Think about the consequences of the garbage you propose.

        1. “No parent should be forced to care for their child”


          I would refer to my original post. “Caring for the child” includes dietary considerations and hygiene before vaccines in my humble opinion.

          1. The point completely wooshed you, unsurprisingly. The underlying premise I was responding to was that “Nobody should be telling anyone to do anything.” Uh, no. Even the most fervent of libertarians don’t believe that. There is a baseline that most of us recognize as essential to co-existing with each other.

            1. “There is a baseline that most of us recognize as essential to co-existing with each other.”

              Can you point to that baseline?

              Where is this documented?

              Was there informed consent?

              Did you read the insert (not just the “fact sheet”)?

              I suspect this thread will be plagued by the reverberations of a few conflicted folks who lost the argument(s).

  15. In which derp sandwiches ignore the concept of herd immunity and ignore once nearly vanished diseases reappearing in villas of soccer moms who get their science from Jenny McCarthy.

    You foment this sort of paranoia, Pat, so enjoy it when it bites back.

    1. Way to go anon. Attack a widely known advocate for the autistic while simultaneously oblivious to the fallacy of ad hoc reasoning before slapping-down a fellow blogger for taking a stand on a difficult issue and being the tip-of-the-spear to get a diverse group of people discussing a hard topic, compiling important information, and discovering different viewpoints.

      *slow clap*

      1. That widely known advocate also pushed anti vaxxing which lead to mmr outbreaks so, yeah, let’s all shed a tear for the noble Ms. McCarthy. Further, Powers consistently pushes fear of the government when it conveniences him, so he can catch some flack too. You are a verbose narcissist with a paranoid streak, so I dont care even a little of your sensibilities are bugged by me trashing people who have earned it.

        Stand up when you clap for me.

        1. Ad hoc fallacy of reason (what proof can you make that this is Jenny’s fault? You present none.).

          Attacking the person (Pat, Jenny, and I).

          Logic is important.

          People who can do logic are neat.

          You can’t do logic, but are pretty good at rhetoric and insults.


          1. And you just throw latin terms around without understanding the underlying reasoning for the terms that is taught in a basic Philo 101 class.

            Post hoc ergo propter hoc!!!!
            Ad hominem!!!

            But since you want to engage in this fart huffery because you apparently got Intro to Philo off Amazon, let’s go with this:

            1) You wrote, with a straight face, about the HORROR of egg protein and salt in vaccines. Let that sink in. Yeah, don’t think I didn’t notice you writing “sodium chloride” for effect.
            2) You have yet to respond to the correlation between the anti-vax movement and the TOTALLY UNFORESEEN return of illnesses that have killed or injured millions of people throughout history.
            3) You write about the terrible profit motive of pharma while ignoring the profit motive of your own sources.

            You are full of it. You write lengthy monologues that are misleading when they are not completely devoid of substance. Please resume farting into bags and huffing their contents in Spearfish while telling others, apropos of nothing, of all the AMAZING JAVA CODING you’ve done.

            You didn’t stand up when you clapped, so I reject your applause.

            1. Hi Anon,

              Close (not really).

              I graduated from The University of Arizona in Tucson in 2000 with a Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy and a Computer Science Minor.

              I have an advanced degree, too, but I’m sure you don’t care about that, since what matters is life experience.

              Want to hear about that?

              Doubt it.

              “HORROR of egg protein and salt in vaccines”

              You sound like Schiff parodying Trump’s phone call.


              Have a super day!

              1. You didn’t even attempt to respond to any of the points you demanded. Typical. Enjoy your fart huffing, I guess.

                  1. Not once did you attempt to address the correlation between anti-vaccine movements and the occurrences of diseases those vaccines prevent skyrocketing. Not once did you address why pharma’s profit motives matter, but not the holistic quacks you hold up as icons.Your double standards are telling, and yet you continue to dance. I need an organ grinder.

                    1. I think the burden of proof is on you for asserting that the lack of vaccines caused the outbreaks.

                      If you provide some evidence, I’ll try to poke holes.

                      In the meantime, I think I’ve done a good job representing that there are some concerns that should be investigated.

                      You impugned JM without really providing any evidence of that. So, it’s up to me to disprove that you assert when the weakness of your case disproves it for me?

                    2. You all trying to support changing the status quo, not me. As of right now all you have is vague assertions. I have the elimination of freaking smallpox on my side, you git.

  16. Pat, you’re being too kind to the bill sponsors. Way I see it, ideally every kid gets shots and the only.choice a parent gets is whether the shot’s a.vaccine or a bullet. But I’m perfectly happy to compromise: your kid can be unvaccinated, but we chain a leper bell to its neck so everybody knows to stay the hell away from your walking hazmat and it lives in miserable isolation like the pariah it should be.

    1. “Pat, you’re being too kind to the bill sponsors. Way I see it, ideally every kid gets shots and the only.choice a parent gets is whether the shot’s a.vaccine or a bullet.”

      *looks up, slowly walks away*

  17. Individual liberty is the common vein that conservatives and libertarians tap into on subjects like this. The premise that one’s individual liberty is worth more than the other is where we need to pause. Your right to do whatever you want ends at affecting someone else.
    Name any subject and you can find minority “science” that supports your beliefs with their corresponding conspiracy theories. I will rely on common sense that vaccinations have led to a massive increase in public health even with some side effects.
    The government isn’t charging into your home and holding you down to be vaccinated but if you want the privilege of participating in a society you will adhere to the laws and regulations passed and administered by a democratically elected government in this country.

    1. “if you want the privilege of participating in a society you will adhere to the laws and regulations passed and administered by a democratically elected government in this country”

      I respect this post a lot.

      There are some cases when it’s obvious.

      Obvious: If you want the privilege of participating in society, you cannot drive on the right side of the road.

      Then, there are some other less obvious but nonetheless interesting cases.

      Absurd: If you want the privilege of participating at work, you must be a non-white female.

      Grey: If you want to participate in society, you must not drink from certain fountains.

      Perspective: If you want to participate in society, do you drink from any drinking fountains because that’s how we spread disease.

      Pointed: If you want to participate in society, you cannot put bullets in unvaccinated children (or threaten it).

      Truth: Unvaccinated children going to school is, will, and should be protected by the law.

  18. Anonymous (which one, there are so many of you!), the CDC states that vaccines do NOT cause autism. You would believe the media over the actual CDC site???
    The conspiracy theories & unfounded statements concerning vaccines are flagrantly ill-educated. Understanding the supreme importance, medical professionals vaccinate their families to prevent suffering & life-threatening illnesses, not only for themselves but society. If you aren’t vaccinated, you are the primary cause of the proliferation of disease caused suffering.

    1. You trust the government to tell the truth? Maybe when it fits your narrative for the day.

      You don’t know much about the CDC or the dangers of vaccines.
      Dr. William Thompson.
      Julie Gerberding.
      Hannah Poling receives 1.5M+ in first ever vaccine-autism claim.

      Dr. David Brownstein, MD states people who are not vaccinated are healthier than the vaccinated. A doctor, studying the immune system and vaccines, is wrong? The science is settled? The scare tactics work well on you.

      1. As a three generation medical doctor family, plus uncles and cousins also graduates of medical schools and residency trained in accredited hospitals, we all vaccinate our children and ourselves. All medical professionals we know also vaccinate their families. As more vaccines become available such as for pneumonia, shingles, hepatitis, etc, for adults we take full advantage of them, as well as the Flu vaccine annually. We educate ourselves with authentic medical research. The ill-informed will create unnecessary suffering for themselves and their families.

        1. Won’t the over-prescription of vaccinations have the same effect of the over-prescription of antibiotics?

          When will the MRSA of vaccines emerge?

          One can make the argument that we should be investing all of that capital in our food systems and hygiene, because there is no mistaking the enormous positive effect these two things have (unlike vaccines, which are a cash cow, unduly indemnified, a centralized attack vector, and very much up for debate).

          Appeals to authority – just because you come from a family of doctors does not, in my view, cross the threshold for my decision to oppose unproven vaccines from companies who escape liability.

          1. According to testimony from Dr. David Brownstein, MD, one will have life long immunity if they contract the measles naturally vs receiving the vaccine. The vaccine does wear off and giving more than two vaccines doesn’t work.

            1. Yep. He is right. But, I’m pretty sure it isn’t worth the incidences and consequences of babies, old people, immune compromised people et. al. having to experience full-blown measles.

              But, that is what we can measure actuarily and determine.

            2. “that is what we can measure actuarily and determine”

              Insurance made my list of the top three worse products ever produced by man.

              It makes more common sense to me to add-up the bill at the end of the year and pay it from a pool rather than paying premiums to create margins for people who aren’t producing anything.

              Well, that’s not entirely true. The insurance industry produces and sells fear.

              But I digress ..

              This is fascinating if true:

              “one will have life long immunity if they contract the measles naturally vs receiving the vaccine”

              It means that vaccines generate immune compromised people!!!

              In software, we have cooperative agencies that create viruses and sell anti-virus software.

              Guido: “I’m here to protect you, but it will cost you.”
              Grocer: “Protect me from what?”
              Guido: “Me, if you don’t pay..”

  19. “you lost me at “award winning investigative journalist.”

    heckifino – I suppose I could say you lost me by posting anonymously. 🙂

    That said, award winning investigative journalist is quite accurate.

    Mike Adams has won awards (prove me wrong).

    He is an investigative journalist (he runs a very meticulous and profitable lab testing the claims of industry as opposed to hacks in the MSM that read cue cards).

  20. John Dale, if I’m understanding your post correctly, your accusing my wife and other doctors of misleading people about vaccines to pad their paychecks. My wife has devoted her career to learn the best practices for her patients. Her paycheck is unaffected by whether someone gets vaccines or not, but it’s her responsibility to give all of her patients the information they need to make the best decisions for their health. To suggest she misleads people for her own benefit is wrong.

    The real conflict of interest are the quack sources you are citing that are selling all natural and beauty products. They stand to make a profit by selling you on their all natural products while dissuading you from choosing to vaccinate. Not only have most of them never stepped foot in medical school, but most of them have never actually formally studied vaccines. Not all “expert” opinions are created equally. If you choose to believe beauty consultants over actual medical expert opinions, that’s a mistake.

    1. Accusation – I think that word doesn’t mean what you think it means.

      Take the example of an average city council meeting. At the beginning of each meeting, the council is asked to disclose conflicts of interest. This is not because of any specific accusation against the council. It is because human nature being what it is (an enormous underestimated tendency toward confirmation bias) someone with a conflict interest is, by default, not entrusted as an authority to make a critical decision regarding said issue (in this case, vaccines).

      No need to paint yourself as the victim. There has been no crime.

      1. If we go with your line of thinking, every medical doctor’s opinion of vaccines is invalid while beauty consultants and all natural healing “experts” are legitimate despite having no formal medical training. To be frank, you don’t know what makes up my wife’s paycheck and it’s only unsubstantiated claims on your part that there’s a conflict of interest. I have no doubt the anti-vaxx propaganda suggests my wife gets paid to administer vaccines and it’s completely false. Please stop spreading lies.

  21. Reading all the debates here and on other medium, it appears there are the following views/perspectives:

    1) Those who accept at face value vaccinations are good for public health and give no credence to any assertion they aren’t good for public health or admit there might be any adverse side effects.
    1a: Support mandatory vaccinations
    1b: Advocate for vaccinations but do not support mandatory vaccinations.

    2) Those who accept vaccinations are good for public health and consider the side effect acceptable risks in light of the significant net benefit to public health.
    2a: Support mandatory vaccinations
    2b: Advocate for vaccinations but do not support mandatory vaccinations.

    3) Those who question vaccinations net impact on public health, especially in light of side effects.
    3a: Do not support mandatory vaccinations and consider this an optional, discretional option.
    3b: Does not support any public advocacy of vaccinations

    4) Those who believe the side effects are greater than any health benefits.
    4a: Opposes mandatory vaccinations
    4b: Opposes voluntary vaccinations

    What is missing in all four/eight scenarios? Scientific data and study where all evidence is presented holistically.

    What are the statistical consequences of a non-vaccinated populace vs. a full, partial or targeted vaccination by illness? For instance, we know the consequences of not vaccinating for Polio and the relatively small side effects in both quantity and seriousness. Same with most flus. Thus, we have mandatory Polio vaccinations and voluntary or targeted vaccinations for most flus.

    Because a great deal of time has passed since people lived with common incidences of mumps, measles, etc. and saw the benefits of vaccination, might it be worth it to pull all the justification into accessible boxes which outlines the benefits and side effects in a way which allows us to use science to re-build a consensus on what illnesses we need universal mandatory vaccination, partial/targeted mandatory vaccination, recommended broad or partial/targeted vaccination, and maybe even identify what vaccinations are deemed net-net not worth it.

    If we had that information, we could also determine when and where we can allow exceptions. For instance, if a vaccine is found too risky with kids with asthma (made up for illustrative purposes), we either give a waiver or do something in the alternative to a vaccine (if possible).

    We live in a republican democracy which values individual liberty. At the same time, we value the common good and a cohesive society. Sometimes that means we allow people to take risks to themselves and maybe even to others. Sometimes we go so far as to remove people from public (ala jails for crimes or quarantines for disease).

    Two scenarios on each extreme end:

    1) Vaccination will save 1 million lives and the side effect will make 10 people sick for a few hours. This scenario I’m comfortable say vaccinate or be quarantined from society.

    2) Vaccination will make 1 million people avoid a few hours of sickness and the side effect will kill 10 people. This scenario I’m comfortable if this vaccination be made illegal.

    Truth is almost all vaccines are in the middle. So, with this information, we can look at where the vaccine is on the spectrum between these scenarios and make decisions on when we have universal mandatory vaccination, partial/targeted mandatory vaccination, recommended broad or partial/targeted vaccination, and maybe even identify what vaccinations are deemed net-net not worth it.

    To be clear, until and while this information is being compiled, I do not support any reduction in the use or mandating of vaccines. In this small world where international travel is the norm which makes risk of a pandemic possible ala the Wuhan coronavirus, relaxing standards prior to having scientific information compiled fails the benefit-risk analysis and is imprudent.

    1. These comments have all been great on all the posts and I enjoyed the debates but, let me add a few points

      – We currently allow exceptions for medical and religious reasons so we do have kids going to school who are not vaccinated. I am not sure of those numbers but, its happening now
      – I think this bill is fair as I don’t think you should force anyone to undergo any medical procedure against their will regardless of why they dont want to.
      – Some people claim folks who don’t want to vaccinate are anti-science or uneducated and the posts I have seen from several suggesst otherwise
      – Some Dr’s on here have stated they approve of them and that is their opinion. This is why its called “practicing medicine” as so many can be just plain wrong. Look at our Opioid epidemic and SO many Drs handing them out like candy. The folks in the white coats are not always right and history has shown time and time again the can be wrong on a whole host of issues. Forgive me for not taking them at their word. My wife has several severe medical conditions and I am amazed at the varying opinions in treatments, diagnosis (many were wrong), and shear incompetence of some and it has shaken me to my core. This experience is at Sanford and Avera. I know I am not alone in this opinion. Sandford just settled a huge lawsuit with one of their “leading quacks” who were putting bolts in peoples backs for no reason.
      -Medical mistakes are the 3rd leading cause of death in the US. Don’t’ get me wrong we are all human and make mistakes but, many are unforced errors. Why do the masses blindly follow the Medical field as they have all the answers, they just don’t and history has proven that time and time again.
      – The only way to enforce this on people is to either restrict them from every place imaginable, which means we have to brand them in some way, The other way is to have law enforcement show up and at the threat of arrest, gun, quarantine, etc enforce this. Neither option is viable and goes against folks God given rights to make their own decision.
      – The point I ask is ‘ If vaccines work why do you care”. You stated that they are not always 100%, which is true but, it should be a small population that they dont work for. In this circumstance my right to choose outweighs this small group and by using YOUR logic above in numerous posts there are small group of folks who CANNOT get a vaccine thus others should get vaccinated to protect. THis logic is flawed because I cannot accommodate that small population and I cannot know if my child will have a severe reaction or injury due to the heavy metals, toxins, or the whole host foreign items in there that may impact me. We now ban peanut butter from school because some kids are now allergic, what’s next? Bottom line, if vaccines work, you are good. The small population they dont work for, can’t have. or don’t want will be a minority. All 3 buckets of minorities will be unvaccinated and by your logic vulnerable. Your only issue is NOW you people who can have them be forced to get them to protect this little group or you have to suffer some sort of scarlet letter.

      1. Thank you for making my point: No science or statistics or study on one single thing you said.

        Drug efficacy and their side effects whether it be an antibiotics, chemo, vaccines, pain meds can be measured and compared to consequences of non-use.

        Let’s put all these vaccines into a peer-reviewed study on efficacy, side effects, risks to the general population and individuals for non-use and usage.

        Then we can make informed science based decisions on what is mandatory, recommended, non recommended, and taken off the market.

        1. These two statements need your redress before we move on.

          1 – heard immunity comes not from vaccines, but from the herd surviving disease naturally

          2 – if vaccines work, why does everyone need them? If they don’t work for elderly because they “wear-out”, do they really work given that even common colds can result in complications from the diseases? Should the elderly be quarantined rather than the population forcibly inoculated?

          Okay – now you.

            1. We have testimonial in this very thread that 1) some vaccines only work once, and do not work as well as getting a disease and fighting it off naturally. We have testimonial in this thread that someone got a flu shot last October, and is suffering from the flu RIGHT NOW.

              A quick google search gives you a survey of research on both sides of the issue.

              I’ll rest my case. Happy reading!

              1. You make the claims, you back them up. This thread is full of wackos, there’s no testimonial here. And the flu shot is a bit different than polio vaccine. JFC. Who is paying our legislators to push these insane bills?

                  1. Nothing closeted about it. Im with you on your views on reefer but I think you may have smoked a little too much and gone into paranoia land. That, or you spend too much time on the internet. Remember, any old dummy can say things online, even me.

          1. John Dale, good questions.

            1). When your parent or child dies or is severely impacted for life, going for herd immunity isn’t going to be very pervasive, especially if it was preventable.

            2). Often the broader public health is enhanced by the broadest participation possible. I personally resist speeding laws because I have both a car and driving skills which makes me as safe as others driving slower. But, discerning innocuous exceptions is impossible so I have to drive the speed limit.

            This all can be statistically and actuarily measured.

            I am willing to expose all vaccination protocols to science studies and trials, efficacy, benefits of vaccination against downsides, and an open assessment of what needs to be universally mandated, partially mandated by demographic, recommended, not recommended, and even taken off the market.

            While I have a strong inclination to minimal government mandates, I find it crazy (yes crazy) when people advocate:

            1) I expect to exercise my right to not bear the side effect risks of any and all vaccinations to reduce my risk and the risk of others to get debilitating or deadly illnesses, AND

            2). I will accept absolutely no restriction of where I go without regard to a risk of sickness I may spread to others.

            1. If Vaccines work on the vast vast majority fo people as you claim, yet don’t work for a small population. Are you in favor of forcing those who don’t want the vaccine to get it to protect this small group? If this group refuses we have societal, economic, or other legal ramifications? If we have ramifications how do you propose to enforce these?

              What trips me out is if these work so well and you have them, you’re covered why are concerned so much. If you are trying to protect small group who can’t have them for whatever reason are you willing to violate the rights of another small group to accomplish this. If you state it would be their choice to not get them and suffer the ramifications of those decisions, how is this accomplished?

              1. This is my position:

                We can Scientifically, statistically and actuarial measure the efficacy and impact on the public health and side effects of each and every vaccine.

                Some may warrant universally mandated vaccination, partial mandated vaccination in certain demographics, recommended vaccination and not recommended in some demographics.

                Like quarantine is sometimes appropriate, failure to take a vaccination universally mandated (subject to reasonable exceptions) should result in restrictions of movement and intermingling with the public.

                No right is absolute.

  22. John Dale, finish telling me how my wife profits off of giving vaccines. We are still waiting on our first check. You seem to know more about our income than we do.

    1. So, immediately after birth is a bad time for vaccines since antibodies from mother’s milk kills the weakened virus instead of the baby’s immune system, which disrupts the viral imprint used to trigger future immune response?

      1. There is much debate on when vaccines are most effective in every mammalian considered being given to. Early vaccines are made less viable while mothers milk is taken in but not totally diminished. No debate in the medical field on their importance at the proper times.

  23. And Mr. Dale I don’t ever want to cross reference the importance of some four legged grass eating animal with that of a human child but the resistance to diseases that those in the beef industry work with their veterinarians to conquer are in fact similar to diseases which infect human beings.

    That said try selling a group of bovine cows not Bangs vaccinated into Nebraska from South Dakota. It won’t happen but some want to lower the immune Standard care of children lower than that of cows. Go figure.

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