Liberal SF City Councilor Starr endorsing view on facebook that Mt. Rushmore is vandalism

It’s a good thing Governor Kristi Noem is ready to defend Mt. Rushmore. Because one of the state’s more liberal politicians is claiming that the carving of the mountain were “vandals erasing history.”

Sioux Falls City Council Member Pat Starr, the same liberal politician who engaged in victim blaming in 2018 because he didn’t like it when crime victims were gun owners, has taken to Facebook this afternoon and is publicizing a meme attacking the presidents on Mt. Rushmore as slave owners and racists by today’s standards and claiming that the mountain was carved by white men who were “vandals erasing history.”

I’m guessing he didn’t put in for the lottery to join President Trump to see the fireworks next weekend.

(Update – a reader tells me this post has mysteriously vanished from the councilor’s facebook page.)

63 Replies to “Liberal SF City Councilor Starr endorsing view on facebook that Mt. Rushmore is vandalism”

  1. John Dale

    If that is this person’s belief, do two wrongs make it right?

    I revere this monument. If violence, takeover and destruction is fair play, it puts the tribes in a tenuous position.

    I revere the Lakota, but I am not willing to sacrifice my own heritage to assuage these contemporary concerns, which would lead to more destruction, chaos, and heartbreak.

    Reply
    1. Caleb

      Sincere question, John: what is your heritage, does it have any boundaries, and if so, what are those boundaries? Thanks in advance if you answer.

      Reply
    2. Anonymous

      Lol, Mt. Rushmore being built on land sacred to the Sioux is not a “contemporary concern,” you absolute git.

      Reply
    3. North RIver

      This sacred land the Sioux or Lakota call the Black Hills, tell me again who did they steal it from? Which tribe did they slaughter to obtain it?

      Reply
      1. Anonymous

        This is why these types or arguments are just stupid. Native tribes went to war frequently to take “sacred ground” from each other all the time. I have a radical idea, let’s give all the Native Tribes in South Dakota the Black Hills and let them run it as their own country. Only a couple conditions
        – You are your own autonomous country
        – You will not receive one cent from the state of SD or the Federal Govt
        – We will not allow Foreign countries to set up any kind of bases, installations, etc due to your location inside the United States

        This will fix everything right!!! I am kidding of course but, there just seems to be no common sense on anything. We are either all Americans or we are not and if we are not, how do we go our separate ways because constantly relitigating something that happened hundreds of years ago makes it impossible to move forward. I really don’t get this thought process.

        Reply
        1. Caleb

          What appears “just stupid” to you can be considered from other angles. We can point at anyone in history and say “they did shitty things, so why can’t we do shitty things?”, or we can acknowledge they did shitty things and abstain from doing shitty things ourselves. In this case, some folks stole land from the Lakota, and the Lakota have since not recovered or stolen that land. Perhaps the Lakota learned stealing land is shitty, while those who stole from them, and promised land to them via treaty have yet to learn that same lesson.

          Reply
          1. Anonymous

            Caleb – You made my point, we have a learned not to steal land from folks. So this argument that we give it back to them is ridiculous as this thought process would never end. We would be forever trying to find the “original” owners of everything on the planet. Its time to move on and constantly living in the past never allows us to move forward as the grievances will never end.

            Reply
            1. Caleb

              Except that eventually you run into folks no longer alive, and therefore no longer able to accept returned lands. The grievances end by responding to people still alive.

              Reply
          2. North River

            Where are all the people outraged at the Lakota for stealing this “sacred” ground from the Cheyenne? It’s interesting that the Lakota have fought legal battles to recover the land they once stole.They stole the land. They forcibly and violently removed the Cheyenne and now they want to cry a river and claim the land is sacred to them. Sacred? Please. It’s a matter of convenience to them that they have never mentioned once in their legal battles that they stole the land in the first place! I hate to break the news but in the real world “might makes right” and the conquerors get to keep the land from the conquered, always has been and will be that way. The Lakota knew this and they reaped what they sowed.

            Reply
  2. Ymois

    I keep thinking where does this end?
    What is a bridge to far for the left?
    Is it all those deemed irredeemable men leaving the country?
    Who decides the division of assets ?
    I’m at a lost to find a silver lining in any of this as this country rips itself from within.
    What was sacrificed for us is being squandered.

    Reply
  3. Anonymous

    How about Stone Mountain? I’ve been there years ago and it made me uncomfortable then. Borglum carved that one too and he was a KKK member. So it’s not hard to equate Rushmore with racism.

    Reply
    1. Steve Higgins

      And Robert Byrd was a member of the KKK. Not just a member but an organizer and recruiter for the KKK and helped to establish new chapters. He also fought against the Civil Rights Act in the 60’s.

      So by your logic you must also find it hard not to equate the Democratic party with racism?

      Reply
      1. Anonymous

        I sure find it hard not to equate the Democrat party with racism; look how they have tried to continue to buy the African-American vote over the decades with failed socialist policies.

        Reply
    2. Anonymous

      anonymous at 8:25: it’s not hard to equate ANYTHING with racism. Toilet paper is white. How long has it been since toilet paper was available in other colors? I remember pink, blue, green yellow and tan toilet paper.

      Reply
      1. Anonymous

        Why did those colored toilet papers go away? Did people realize that it is stupid to dye paper that is going to be used for toilet paper’s raison de’tre? I am asking seriously just out of weird curiosity, so don’t anyone try to paint this as a white supremacy thing.

        Reply
    3. Anonymous

      It’s not hard if that is your goal with everything in life, yes.

      What if an Aryan-nation jackwagon came up with the cure for cancer? Would that be completely tainted by his racist views such that we shouldn’t use it?

      Anybody out there who hasn’t done bad things in their life, raise you hand; all right. . . the rest of you, we are going to wipe out everything you have ever done.

      Reply
  4. Anonymous

    Forgive me, but I’m a bit cynical on the native naming of the mountain. Looks like something pulled out of their butt to justify demolition/national guilt.

    Reply
  5. It doesn't matter

    I think that Pat Star is on to something here and honestly it doesn’t stop with Mt Rushmore. I’m not a historian but my guess is that Pat Star’s home sits on property that was stolen from the Sioux at one point in time and was “vandalized” to look like a house with a lawn. I’d encourage Mr Star to start by leading through his actions and be an example. Let’s see him offer up his home to the Sioux tribe and move to a piece of property that was never stolen, desecrated, or “vandalized”. Hopefully, he ends up in Far Northern Canada. Hopefully, you can realize that I’m being sarcastic because Star’s poor thought leadership falls apart really fast.

    Reply
    1. Anonymous

      Why did those colored toilet papers go away? Did people realize that it is stupid to dye paper that is going to be used for toilet paper’s raison de’tre? I am asking seriously just out of weird curiosity, so don’t anyone try to paint this as a white supremacy thing.

      Reply
    2. Anonymous

      Good point, IDM. Is Pat Starr going to put his money where his mouth is, or is he just trying to score points with the far left to puff his little self up?

      Reply
      1. Anonymous

        Very Rarely will these Virtue Signally Leftists put their money where their mouth is. They like to tell everyone else what THEY should do in their Righteous vitriol they spew. I would at least take them seriously if they would give up their supposed”privilege” first before asking others to do as I say, don’t do as I do. I am sure the whole state of South Dakota at one point was occupied by Native Americans so Mr Starr’s house in play. Hypocrites

        Reply
          1. Come on Caleb

            I take it you don’t have access to a dictionary or google.

            “the sharing of one’s point of view on a social or political issue, often on social media, in order to GARNER PRAISE or acknowledgment of ONE’s RIGHTEOUSNESS from others who share that point of view, or to PASSIVELY REBUKE those who do not”

            Many of the folks who use this tactic are Left Leaning puppets who have no spine and always trying to say “see I love you, I am down with your cause” etc etc. I think it’s hilarious folks can even agree to something as taking down Mt Rushmore saying we need to give it back. As I stated above, Mr Starr probably won’t give up his house which is probably built on stolen land from Natives before he tells others what they should do. Its insincere, hypocritical, and often what you see from Leftists. Do as I say dont do as I do. Same thing goes for the myth of White Privilege and how that is thrown around yet, I NEVER see any of these folks who have supposedly benefited from White Privilege, giving away their positions, money, or property to others but, they want YOU to do it. I could go on and on but, suffice it to say if the Left didn’t have double standards they would have no standards at all.

            Reply
            1. Caleb

              Thanks for sharing your definition, Come on Caleb. I could have looked up the phrase, but I didn’t care to, because it’s a slang phrase that only appeared before me within the last decade, and is one that only comes from people in my life who align with the right, so go figure the definition explains away those they think come from the left. Think about the definition a bit harder, and maybe you’ll see why those of us who align with no party wonder why those in our lives who lob the phrase against their enemies can’t see how they do the same thing. For simple example, by countering virtue signaling, you could be signaling a virtue. In that way I asked my question rhetorically.

              Reply
              1. Anonymous

                This term is not related to a party. Its related to Folks who act this way, many who are probably Democrats or Anarchist. You will get not argument out of me that the Rs have a lot of work to do. A good chunk of them are RINOs and not American loving representatives. The Dems are pure Evil and their actions have shown us this. If I got to be dictator for a day. I would round up every Dem Rep and Senator, and probably 75% of the Rs and exile them on an Island and strip their citizenship. I would deport every single Non American ( this is not a race thing, is a citizen thing, I want to be clear). I would also round up all the Main Stream media and dump them on the same island, ALL OF THEM. Leaving the independent REAL journalist that look. Yeah this is wishful thinking but, we have way too many people in this country that hate it and want to see it fall. Only way to get around this is to separate from them in some way. There is no middle ground anymore.

                Reply
                1. Caleb

                  Okay, so “virtue signaling” is not related to a party, yet somehow you only see that action among Democrats and anarchists…and you think Democrats are “pure evil”. What actions have proven the latter claim? Do you not recognize “evil” is quite a subjective term your enemies could just as easily place upon you without any backing reason?

                  As for “Main Stream media”, do you happen to include Fox News, the most watched cable news network? I ask that sincerely, as I don’t assume you do or don’t. Regardless, how do you distinguish between “real” independent journalists and…whatever independent journalists apparently don’t exist despite existing?

                  Lastly, do you know any of those people you think hate this country and want to see it fail? Some of us simply want our country to act with integrity, like a parent might want their child to not throw punches at other children. Perhaps you look at some wanting a responsible country and assume they want to destroy their country. Given how simply you throw out claims of “too many people” and “no middle ground anymore”, I wouldn’t be surprised. How do you measure such things, after all?

                  Reply
                  1. Anonymous

                    Caleb – Evil is clear to see, the fact that is even a question tells me you may not have your eyes open. This party openly supports the following which are EVIL
                    – Abortion, up to and including post term abortion
                    – Socialism and Communism, both of which has contributed directly to Millions of deaths over the last 100+ years.
                    – They have bowed to the Alter of the Squad which are openly Anti American spewing antisemitic statements with Ilhan Omar saying “some people did something” when referring to 9/11. This lady married her brother!!!
                    – They have sat by in THEIR democrat control cities and let looters and rioters ransack good peoples businesses and homes. Seattle, Chicago, Atlanta, etc

                    Its really clear to see if you want to see it and this is a small list. I am going to assume the reason you even ask that Evil is a subjective term is because your world view is not shaped by one where God is the creator. This is the only logically way you would be able to use Evil as subjective because if you are an Atheist then yes there really is not good an evil because it cannot exist. If that is the case we need to have a different discussion. If you do believe in God I suggest you search your heart and start asking some serious questions because the Democrats are Demonic. The abortion issue alone should be enough for any sane God fearing person to state they are Evil without hesitation.
                    -.

                    Reply
                    1. Caleb

                      Thanks for your sincere answer. I do not consider myself atheist, but instead identify as agnostic after an upbringing within Christianity followed by learning about many more theological views and meeting many people holding many of those. Your assumption of God’s existence is a subjective experience. Your idea of “evil” stemming from that assumption is subjective, as well. No matter how many people believe in the same idea, you all nonetheless believe so based on your interpretation of human existence as informed by your sensory and everything falling under your observation throughout your life – that’s subjective. Nobody knows God exists – that’s a matter of faith.

                      Socialism and communism are not the only systems which have resulted in massive deaths. I grew up within capitalism, inundated by entertainment and propaganda demonizing those systems, as well. But I’ve approached all systems in critical fashion, and therefore found capitalism has its “evils”, as well. You haven’t studied our nation’s history of murdering people all around the globe, or some of the fallacious ways in which deaths not resulting from socialism/communism were attributed to those systems, if you believe they are evil while capitalism is not. Besides, maybe you didn’t notice the Democratic party in general opposes anything but capitalism, and only in recent times have some significantly pushed the party in any other direction.

                      That you think Ilhan Omar is an antisemite is telling. Anti-Zionism and antisemitism are not the same thing. She made comments aligned with the former, and a smear campaign then portrayed her as the latter knowing some folks can’t tell the difference. Anyway, as I understand it, the idea she married her brother has not been proven or dis-proven. Care to share why you believe she has indeed married her brother?

                      The looting and rioting is far more complicated than whether Democrats or Republicans controlled the cities in which such things happened. History, and decades deep history at that, plays into such things, meaning Republican and Democratic control have had overlapping influence across all that time. Further, a Democratic or Republican controlled city is not homogeneous in influence under either party, as in a mayor or city council falling entirely or mostly under one does not necessarily bear upon who owns the businesses, who comprises the police, etc. Keep that in mind while considering some business owners have accepted their businesses burning down without resentment, because they agreed with the broader movement that started the protests.

                      As for abortion…is it evil because it involves killing someone, or what? Would you please expound on that?

                      So…to wrap up, I asked about evil to see which idea of evil you subscribe to, because many have existed throughout time, just as many currently exist. Apparently you don’t understand that, though, because many (maybe even most) Democrats believe in God, as well. Your idea that the abortion issue alone is enough for any God fearing person to believe Democrats are evil clearly shows you have your own narrow idea of God, one that doesn’t at all recognize many other old ideas of God.

  6. Craziness

    This whole sins of the past and trying to take it back now is SO out of Control its ridiculous. Let’s stay close to home and talk South Dakota.

    Fact – American Ancestors won brutal wars and at times shear slaughter of Native Americans and territory was taken
    Fact – Native American tribes throughout history killed and butchered each other and stole land and territory from each other.
    Fact – Throughout the history of the world wars were fought over Land and Territory pushing people all over the globe.

    So now the question is, let’s go down this “give stuff back to the original people” argument. How far do we go back to rectify sins of the past. That would be pretty hard thing to do if not impossible and it’s just insane. These same types of people that argue for this stuff also argue that the Jews have no right to their ancestral homeland of Israel.

    I am at the point I think America needs a Divorce. We can no longer see eye to eye on really anything. I am not sure how we divide it up but, I say we should seriously consider it as the only other option would be another Civil War, which I oppose but, the LEFT has pushed so hard with Cancel culture, communism, and political correctness they are starting to ruin regular Americans lives and suppressing Free Speech.

    Reply
    1. Anonymous

      This is right on. We are all human beings. Mistakes in all cultures were and continue to be made. The Lakotas were not peace loving hippies, but instead brought war on other more peaceful tribes. Many of them were pushed out or disapeared.

      Reply
    2. Caleb

      I propose another solution: dig deep into why you believe nobody can see eye to eye, and counter those forces. You may be surprised to learn a conversation, with your neighbor or a stranger, in which both of you speak genuinely in your own terms and about your own concerns, may reveal more common ground than you ever believed existed.

      Reply
      1. Anonymous

        Disagree Caleb, respectfully. There are not enough of you on the Left to make any meaningful impact on Conversations. The fact people who dont like statues are bringing them down without a conversation, due process, etc, just violence. The fact that the Left will not accept the 2016 election and have done everything to obstruct and destroy this country because they didn’t get their way. You are seeing across the country rioting, looting, killing, and shear terror from Leftist. Trying to get people fired from jobs who disagree with them and no longer allowing folks to disagree with them, NO they must be destroyed, right. Many on the Left have stated they are done talking, BLM, Antifa, etc. Conservatives have done nothing but, compromise for years. We loathed just about everything Obama and his Ilk stood for but, we tried our best to support him when we could. You didn’t see us out there burning stuff down or losing all sense of decorum and civility because we didn’t get our way. So you sir are incorrect but, I sincerely wish you were right and I mean that but, it’s not going to happen. This is why I propose you Loons on the Left can go have your Socialist, victimhood, violent, crybaby country, the rest of the Adults will carry on trying to uphold American values. I think it can be done:

        Let California, Oregon, Washington, Hawaii, New York, and the New England States, peacefully succeed. There can be bartering on what can stay and go but, I say scram and do your thing. I would be more than happy to move to wherever I needed to go if negotiations put South Dakota on the list to go to the dark side of the force

        Reply
        1. Caleb

          Anonymous, you don’t know me, yet you’ve responded to me as if I’m a bunch of people I’m not. I hope you may some day learn to listen rather than project. I wish you well in learning critical thinking. Keep aiming at peace, please.

          Reply
      2. Springer

        Not going to happen with the left as things stand now. They dont listen, only attack opposing views as racist, get people fired for expressing those views, censor posts on facebook. Nope, no rational people left in the liberal population. If I am wrong, prove it. the rational people need to stand up to the violent, loud mob mentality, but I am not holding my breath. They would be similarly attacked.

        Reply
        1. Caleb

          If you can’t look at comment threads on this blog and see a similar lack of listening on “the right”, you probably aren’t open to any proof against your opinion. Name calling (such as “racist”), political firings, and censorship are not exclusive to one side or another. Neither are violence and mob mentalities. If you seriously care about such things, please fight against them on whatever side you identify with as much as you resist them on whatever side you oppose.

          Reply
          1. BS Caleb

            Caleb – It’s quite apparent from all your posts on this site you’re a Lefty OR just someone trying to stir the pot. If you cannot see that the Left is no longer willing to debate but, only destroy ANYONE who opposes their views you either in denial or purposely have your head in the sand. The riots, looting, and killing are not coming from the Right, and the reason I can say this 100% certainty is because if it did, it would be front-page news for months. Ever single MSM station would play this over and over and blame Trump for it. The list of folks who have been Deplatformed by FB, Twitter, etc is so long I cannot even list them all. The Left is going after people’s jobs when they disagree and even family members. Antifa, who attacks and berates people they disagree with are all Left-wing lunatics. Many of us regular Joe folks who are Conservative in their thinking ar done trying to reason, it’s useless.

            Reply
            1. Caleb

              Thanks, BS Caleb, for your sincere response. I think you’re accurate in saying I align with the left, but please consider I wouldn’t use “righty” as a pejorative for anyone on this blog or elsewhere, and take my input as one of a genuinely concerned fellow citizen.

              I believe you lack media literacy. I say that, because:

              1) Fox News, not a “left” or “liberal” outlet, is the most watched network in the nation.
              2) Before the deplatforming you mentioned, Google and Facebook algorithms, and before that a WaPo smear campaign, cut severely into traffic on truly left leaning (as opposed to the “liberal” sect so many love to lump in with the left) sites’ traffic.
              3) The left are not alone in going after people’s jobs or against family members. Antifa and “left-wing” lunatics are not alone in attacking and berating people. Many on the right do these things, as well, and all are problematic, because they involve presumption and pre-emptive condemnation.

              So let me emphasize: how you perceive the left, based upon a minority within the left (or possibly not even part of the left), is very much how many wrongfully see the right, as in “no longer willing to debate but, only destroy ANYONE who opposes their views”, and if you can’t see that, you haven’t applied enough criticism to your self or your group(s) throughout your life. I’d say I’m a rather regular Joe, too. If we can’t question ourselves as much as we question others, we are lost to manipulation from those above us. Please don’t give up trying to reason.

              Reply
  7. enquirer

    i personally was impressed by those renaming the national memorial, the ‘faces of the conquerors.’ yes. washington conquered the british red coats, the most bloody occupying force on the planet at that time; jefferson conquered the eurocentric elites who wanted to lock up the continent into banks and fiefdoms; lincoln conquered the slaveowners armies; roosevelt conquered the free market manifest destiny forces devouring the country and established the park system. so i guess it fits. sadly, half of this bunch did have slaves because of their time and place.

    Reply
  8. Ike

    125,000 dead Americans and the economy in shambles, but we’re dog-whistling over “something” happening to Mt. Rushmore? Really? Nothing’s gonna happen to Mt. Rushmore. A dozen hippies with a tow strap aren’t going to pull it down for cryin’ out loud. Sheesh. Outrage Culture rides again!

    Reply
    1. Anonymous

      Ike I would not be so sure. Yes it’s going to take a smarter group than a bunch of hippies with Rope but, we are living in interesting times. I think the Lunatics who are doing some of this stuff feel emboldened because who has stopped them? What consequences have there been for defacing and destroying public and personal property? The rule of law is being thwarted daily by these nut bags. If you really feel passionately, you peaceable protest, you vote, and try to find ways to have these items removed if you can convince enough people. The problem is, these people don’t believe in that process and are butt hurt that not everyone agrees with them.
      I have to ask the question, in all seriousness, what kind of person is triggered by a statue of someone who has been dead for hundreds of years?

      While I get your point in a rational world this never happens but, I think we are living in a very crazy times and its going to have to get worse before it gets better. It’s going to take an event or two where the average citizens raises up and go out and literally kick these guys @sses when the show up to rob, steal, loot, and just burn stuff down. Once Regular Joe gets that p!ssed off then thats when the rubber will meet the road. Until then, yeah I think some idiots would give it a shot man, I really do

      Reply
      1. Ike

        “I have to ask the question, in all seriousness, what kind of person is triggered by a statue of someone who has been dead for hundreds of years? “

        Considering most of these statues were erected from the early to mid 20th century for the purpose of honoring losers intimidating black people, I can see why they might have an issue with them. Maybe the real question you should ask is why should we “honor” a bunch of racist traitors by erecting a statue in the first place?

        Anyway, Mt. Rushmore will be fine until the nukes drop or the Yellowstone Caldera blows. Oh, and wear a damn mask.

        Reply
        1. Anonymous

          Ike, I can understand some of that with SOME of this historical figures but, they are going after statues like Lincoln. I don’t think it really has anything to do with statues per say, more they just want to cause chaos and anarchy. If you going after Lincoln now I am not sure what message you are even trying to send.

          Reply
        2. Steven Higgins

          “honoring losers”

          Losers…..really? How about you list your lifetime accomplishments so we can compare those to the “losers”?

          Reply
          1. Ike

            Yeah. LOSERS. Jackasses like John Bell Hood – ultra- racist, traitor to the United States, and a LOSER that never won a battle and single-handedly decimated his Army of Tennessee through foolhardy, stupid, and horrible strategy.

            My accomplishments vis-a-vis idiots like Hood are myriad: I’ve never lost a battle, destroyed my own army, subjugated people of another race, or been a traitor to my country.

            There needs to be more statues of me.

            Reply
  9. Springer

    They are no longer trying to send any message except look at us, we can do anything we want, destro anything we want, and nobody is going to stop us. And so far it is working. They have no agenda except to destroy the greatest nation on earth.

    Reply
    1. anon

      Are you saying they are not an organized terrorist organization like Dear Leader and his toady Bill Barr say they are?

      Reply
  10. Troy

    Today, Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment TV said: “Black people don’t care about any damn statues. They are laughing at you white people.”

    Reply
    1. Ike

      He speaks for all black people everywhere just like you speak for all white people everywhere.

      While I don’t doubt he believes that, I also believe that many black people are uncomfortable with their neighbors and countrymen honoring those who fought to keep their ancestors enslaved.

      Reply
      1. Springer

        So what is the rationale for tearing down statues of Linculn or Columbus or a man who was an abolitionist and helped free slaves? There is no rationale beyond domestic terrorism and anarchy.

        Reply
  11. Troy

    Caleb,

    The #1 Virtue Signal on Facebook today: “I wear a mask to protect you. I care” or putting out one of those questions that asks if you were one where a whole bunch of maskers can roll around in their mask-wearing and talk about those who don’t. If you really cared, you’d just wear you mask and not worry about getting likes.

    Reply
    1. Caleb

      Thanks for answering, Troy. What I take from your answer is this:

      One virtue signals when expressing an action their values compel rather than just executing that action. Does that sound like what you are suggesting?

      Reply
      1. Anonymous

        Pure Trolling at this point Caleb. Your posts all over this thread show that. Don’t ask me to explain it because you’re clearly here to pick fights and ask stupid questions.

        Reply
        1. Caleb

          Okay, I guess I’ll just take your accusation as irrefutable, then. Nevermind my question to Troy was sincere, as in, if his answer countered my proposition, I would believe my interpretation was wrong.

          Reply
          1. Anonymous

            You asked the same question above to another commenter. Your constant What about this and what about that and then refuting each point someone makes tells me your just trolling. The person above you engaged with stated the Dem party was evil and you actually tried to make a point that Evil is an arbitrary word. Evil is clear to see your just instigating.

            Reply
            1. Caleb

              I asked the same question, because Troy and “anonymous” are not the same people. I try to take each person’s words as each person means their words, rather than assume each person is trying to say the exact same thing when they might mean different things.

              I questioned one’s claim of evil, because I recognize many throughout history, and even today, have applied and apply the word to different behaviors. In that way, “evil” is clear for all to see, but less clear for different types of believers to agree on what exactly is “evil”. Hence I sought clarity on what the one raising “evil” identified as “evil”. That you think I sought only to instigate tells me you have a narrow understanding of the word, and a mind closed to different interpretations of it, let alone empathizing with someone who approaches the subject in a way different than you do. I’ve been called an instigator before, even by people who have spoken to me in person, yet none of them has ever explained that claim. I have a hard time trusting their judgment as a result, as I’d expect nobody to trust mine if I simply made a claim without any backing reason. So go ahead and call me a troll, but please recognize I know myself and my intentions, even if in a skewed way, whereas you only know the words I type into discussions like this, which are not me.

              Reply
      2. Troy

        No. Nice try to sanitize it.

        A true person of virtue does what they think is right without need to explain or invite pats on the back. They do good for its own sake and not the praise one gets.

        Also, a person of virtue doesn’t do it in a way to also shame a person who doesn’t do as you desire.

        It is absurd for a person to think they have to explain why they wear a mask. They also don’t have to explain why they wear glasses, get a tattoo, or a hat. I trust they have their reasons that are satisfactory to them. If I have a question, I’ll ask.

        Reply
        1. Caleb

          You project in thinking I tried sanitizing anything. I had no foregone conclusion – I offered my interpretation so you could confirm or reject it.

          I agree nobody has to explain anything. Meanwhile I recognize all sorts of people explain away pretty much everything they do, no matter which side or sides they may identify with, and no matter which virtues they embrace.

          As for doing things for praise or to shame…how do you know what motivations people act upon but don’t express? I’d suggest you don’t, and I ask that, because people in my own community have referred to things I’ve done as “virtue signaling” without having any clue what my motivations were, and while doing pretty much the exact same thing, just in a different direction. My specific example pertains to putting up signs.

          So…that said, by “virtue signal”, do you refer to doing something to garner praise or shame others rather than “do good for its own sake”? I just want to make sure I have a clear understanding of what you precisely mean, because the phrase is a point of contention in my life among people who have long been allies.

          Reply

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